Eurozone will collapse...

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by Damien

I think it's very far fetched to assume Germany used the EU as a vehicle for dominance. Can't help but think the English preoccupation with WW2 is colouring our impression of Europe and it isn't a healthy attitude.

Far fetched, I bet there were some saying the same thing just before Germany started to kill all those innocent people

Germany has tried twice by force to control Europe, They lost both times now they are trying to rule with a financial fist.

[gba93]

Originally Posted by Sirius

Far fetched, I bet there were some saying the same thing just before Germany started to kill all those innocent people

Germany has tried twice by force to control Europe, They lost both times now they are trying to rule with a financial fist.

Think I might have made this point in the past but it's well worth repeating

Originally Posted by Sirius

Far fetched, I bet there were some saying the same thing just before Germany started to kill all those innocent people

Germany has tried twice by force to control Europe, They lost both times now they are trying to rule with a financial fist.

You want to think about that? Think about the implications of the comparison you're making? Reconsider exactly what it was Nazi Germany did before you throw those kinds of statements around.

[mertle]

Originally Posted by martyh

http://news.sky.com/home/business/article/16235092

OH dear ,here we go again

three spanish banks downgraded to JUNK

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/3455...tings-junk.htm

Now nordic banks teetering

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/3453...rdic-banks.htm

We heading for BANK CRISIS mark 2

Or should it be mark 3

wonder how much all the mess is all down to hyper overpriced land/property. We seemed to been in notion that it could get higher higher indefinately.

Over the years the value of property/land gone down in any significance even during lean periods its tended to only flutuate small margins. Yet rises been more steeper over the years.

You rarely hear housing crash to 50% of its former value.

This tends to drive other mechinisms such inflation standard living and need for comparable wages to suport mortgages.

Its also the biggest debt of any nation to banks mortage lending.

There is a real danger of this Chicken Little behaviour of running around and screaming the sky is falling.You infect everyone else and soon everyone else is doing it.

Start shouting about financial institutions in the same manner and before long you have a panic and what was possible becomes inevitable and there are long queues outside banks.

I think we have a real chance of talking ourselves into a financial meltdown.

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by Damien

You want to think about that? Think about the implications of the comparison you're making? Reconsider exactly what it was Nazi Germany did before you throw those kinds of statements around.

Ok let me see

History shows that Germany has a habit of trying to control Europe by any means they see fit.

In the past it has been instrumental in starting wars to help it in that task and Germany has been known to carry out some horrible things to help it in its endeavor to control Europe.

Now they are trying a different option and that is via the Euro, They are demanding that other countries follow what they say IE Greece. I want nothing to do with the EU because i want nothing to do with a country that wants to control it and therefor control any country who is a part of it. That country is GERMANY

I want the Euro to fail so we can return to what we signed up to and that's a common market


Did i make that clear enough for you and yes i was well aware of what i posted in my other post and stand by it

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Maggy J

There is a real danger of this Chicken Little behaviour of running around and screaming the sky is falling.You infect everyone else and soon everyone else is doing it.

Start shouting about financial institutions in the same manner and before long you have a panic and what was possible becomes inevitable and there are long queues outside banks.

I think we have a real chance of talking ourselves into a financial meltdown.

Markets hate uncertainty and so do investors both large and small. Confidence (often misplaced) is what fuels booms and a lack thereof coupled with the tiresome financial realities of life is what leads to the inevitable bust. As we are seeing with a relatively small economy in Greece, it doesn't take much to rock the foundations of the EU's house of cards. The Eurozone bigwigs' failure to act decisively in sorting out the crisis is what's increasingly spooking everyone and Merkel isn't too keen on staking more German money underwriting EU debt via common Eurobonds without getting something in return. We had plenty of talking and hot air from Europe before and during the Balkans conflict and little seems to have changed. These people love having meetings but don't seem to have a plan B and that's what's really worrying. Yes it can become a self-fulfilling prophecy and many would argue that the difficulty of achieving concensus within such a group of nations was one of the EU's fundamental flaws from the outset. Of course anyone who dared point that out was called a little Englander or something equally derogatory. Right now I reckon the EU is trying to control the spread of a forest fire with a garden hose and I'm certain that Merkel's 'solution' will involve yet more 'integration' and, therefore, German influence within the EU. I didn't think anyone should doubt how high the stakes in this 'game' are.

---------- Post added at 10:03 ---------- Previous post was at 09:40 ----------

Meanwhile, clearly not at all concerned about the potential for chaos in Europe, Teresa May is apparently making plans to restrict EU immigration in the event of a crisis. I understand there are provisions in EU law to allow member states to do this in times of emergency, but what's the betting their definition of an 'emergency' won't be quite the same as ours?...

The Government is drawing up plans for emergency immigration controls to curb an influx of Greeks and other European Union residents if the euro collapses, the Home Secretary discloses today.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...collapses.html

Originally Posted by Sirius

Ok let me see

History shows that Germany has a habit of trying to control Europe by any means they see fit.

History shows the Italians and the British had a habit of doing that as well. Only difference is we were more successful. Do you wake up with a burning desire for empire and oppression or is that confined to history? We even fetishise the Empire whereas the Germans are ashamed of their past, the crimes aren't the same scale of course but they were still crimes.

In the past it has been instrumental in starting wars to help it in that task and Germany has been known to carry out some horrible things to help it in its endeavor to control Europe.

Ditto the UK.

Now they are trying a different option and that is via the Euro, They are demanding that other countries follow what they say IE Greece. I want nothing to do with the EU because i want nothing to do with a country that wants to control it and therefor control any country who is a part of it. That country is GERMANY

Germany care only about their own country. They are currently bailing out countries in Europe which didn't live within their means and now threaten to damage the Euro and the Germany economy as a result. They do not want to be bailing out Greece, it's a lot of money and it's politically unpopular in Germany. They have to anyway because if the Euro goes down they suffer. This is the extent of their ambition in dictating to Greece, if they want the bailouts then they have to make a commitment to avoiding the need for more bailouts to come. Germany did not cause Greece to overspend or cause them to have a lax approach to collecting taxation.

Germany are actually resisting the Eurobonds plan which many, i.e the French, are arguing for. This would actually be better from the point of view of a 'closer Europe' but they don't want to do it because they would lose out economically.

This isn't a diabolical plan to control Europe. It's panic in the Eurozone Governments.

Did i make that clear enough for you and yes i was well aware of what i posted in my other post and stand by it

So, just to make it clear enough for me, you're comparing a Government which was responsible for the deaths of tens of millions of people and that committed the Holocaust to the current German government?

Maybe the reason Germany is in such a strong position is because they spend more of their time looking forward rather than obsessing over the past. The world has moved on quite a bit since World War 2 (When it comes to World War 1 it's far more complex than 'The Germans') and it might be time stop using it as the basis for our understanding on international politics.

[Osem]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18193437

German Chancellor Angela Merkel said the bonds would violate EU treaties and would "not contribute to kick-starting growth".

She said that for eurobonds to work there would first have to be "very much stronger economic coordination in the eurozone".

http://www.publicserviceeurope.com/e...urobonds-taboo

French president Francois Hollande's support for joint euro area borrowing standing in stark contrast to Merkel's insistence that such a step should be taken only once eurozone economies are much more closely integrated.

Further integration seems to be the quid pro quo for German agreement. Not quite the same as Germany being against the idea.

[mertle]

Originally Posted by Osem

Markets hate uncertainty and so do investors both large and small. Confidence (often misplaced) is what fuels booms and a lack thereof coupled with the tiresome financial realities of life is what leads to the inevitable bust. As we are seeing with a relatively small economy in Greece, it doesn't take much to rock the foundations of the EU's house of cards. The Eurozone bigwigs' failure to act decisively in sorting out the crisis is what's increasingly spooking everyone and Merkel isn't too keen on staking more German money underwriting EU debt via common Eurobonds without getting something in return. We had plenty of talking and hot air from Europe before and during the Balkans conflict and little seems to have changed. These people love having meetings but don't seem to have a plan B and that's what's really worrying. Yes it can become a self-fulfilling prophecy and many would argue that the difficulty of achieving concensus within such a group of nations was one of the EU's fundamental flaws from the outset. Of course anyone who dared point that out was called a little Englander or something equally derogatory. Right now I reckon the EU is trying to control the spread of a forest fire with a garden hose and I'm certain that Merkel's 'solution' will involve yet more 'integration' and, therefore, German influence within the EU. I didn't think anyone should doubt how high the stakes in this 'game' are.

---------- Post added at 10:03 ---------- Previous post was at 09:40 ----------

Meanwhile, clearly not at all concerned about the potential for chaos in Europe, Teresa May is apparently making plans to restrict EU immigration in the event of a crisis. I understand there are provisions in EU law to allow member states to do this in times of emergency, but what's the betting their definition of an 'emergency' won't be quite the same as ours?...



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...collapses.html

This the problem governments only themselves to blame deregulating the markets. Should never done this was always one day come back bite them up backside.

free unregulated market with fair capitilism is myth as its full of greed. Without tight reigns it becomes too dangerous. Governments was thick to allow it to get out of hand.

My fear where they going looking at ftse shows there is one heap trouble coming our way. Another brownstuff storm.

This just top movers this shows more banks losing where the money men investing its big trouble here.

Moving up FTSE 100 Price Change ADMIRAL GROUP 1,101.51p +2.95% AGGREKO 2,154.23p +2.37% TULLOW OIL 1,387.89p +2.35% UNITED UTIL GRP 647.00p +1.88% NATIONAL GRID 677.65p +1.86% Moving down FTSE 100 Price Change LLOYDS BNK GRP 26.27p -4.12% VEDANTA RES 969.58p -3.30% EVRAZ PLC 299.91p -3.04% ROYAL BANK SCOT 21.56p -2.66% XSTRATA 911.90p -2.40%

It seems these money men really not thinking this through dont realise damage they doing. They lost sight that stocks should never guarantee profits losses will happen so we now get more movement than before. Its like they find the next safe haven. They lose money they gain money always will happen panic not what the world needs.

I agree maggy what really nead cool heads DONT PANIC.

At momemt its OIL, UTILITIES, insurances this my problem by tanking the banks they tanking the economy.

Governments will be forced to bailout again then they will saying MORE Austerity on the wrong end of spectrum.

Lets get markets regulated again stop this nonsense

I now wondering if we need to shift from imeterial wealth to hardcore wealth. Let these bigots play there little games have businesses work on hardcore property, and finance not there stock value.

Take the power away from money men to dictate where they can pressure/tank companies by taking that power away.

It wont happen over night it maybe too late but if I have 20p should not go to the bank as bargaining power of my 20p.

I therefore should never be able to go to bank ask for million loan due to my stock value say 1bn shares as example.

This why western economy tanking due to this stupid scenerio evolved.

That way money men bail the company wont go bust.

Rant, rave, incoherent paranoid mumblings - repeat ad nauseum....

Originally Posted by Hugh

Rant, rave, incoherent paranoid mumblings - repeat ad nauseum....

Now now that's no way to talk about the Eurozone leaders...

Originally Posted by Osem

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18193437



http://www.publicserviceeurope.com/e...urobonds-taboo



Further integration seems to be the quid pro quo for German agreement. Not quite the same as Germany being against the idea.

If all debts are pooled and the Eurozone borrows and gets credit as one then you would need further integration. You can't have Eurobonds without further integration. Germany are holding out because they would lose out, they would be brought down to the level of rest and take on more debt for nothing.

Germany's motivation is economic success for their own country.

[mertle]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Rant, rave, incoherent paranoid mumblings - repeat ad nauseum....

Ok clever clogs then whats your solution to the mess. Why dont you think deregulation been bad.

Why do you think my coments paranioa when the markets are bailing from banks putting into oil, utilities and insurance.

Spain already negotiating 16bn bailout there banks so not unrealistic to assume we could end up coughing money to help out ours.

Originally Posted by mertle

Ok clever clogs then whats your solution to the mess. Why dont you think deregulation been bad.

Why do you think my coments paranioa when the markets are bailing from banks putting into oil, utilities and insurance.

Spain already negotiating 16bn bailout there banks so not unrealistic to assume we could end up coughing money to help out ours.

I don't think anyone actually has a solution that can be guaranteed to work.
However not panicking might be a start.