Eurozone will collapse...

[mertle]

Originally Posted by Chris

Why exactly should institutions whose job it is to lend money in order to earn interest, lend money in places where they have a reasonable suspicion they won't get it back? Excessively risky lending is what got us into this mess in 2008 - money men not withholding when they really should have. Or is your memory really so short?

Spain's cost of borrowing reflects the level of risk the market attaches to the transaction, and that assessment is made with good reason. The Euro is fundamentally flawed by design. It worked fine only as long as conditions were benign but it has failed miserably in the face of its first serious challenge. The floundering economies of Europe cannot be salvaged as long as they remain within the Eurozone. As long as they remain in the EZ, the cash injections required to keep them afloat are inherently risky, and therefore subject to punitive rates of interest.

this problem chris

How much these countries overstretched bailing out there banks look at spain now despite issues. Still bailing the parasites out which clearly making things much worse.

Because banks know they will be bailed as what happens to people money in those banks, peoples homes.

Lets not forget in spain one problem was overhyped housing market who caused this banks and money men. How much was this down to libor scandal too. So again not government.

Without any countries bailout then the banks would suffered the brunt this, also those money men who got caught with pants down. Why the money men should cut some slack.

Fact some these money men may been behind some the problems which caused banks to go belly up by getting involved in the sublime and ponze scheme.

Why should countries be blamed for there incompetance.

Works all ways dont it.

Surely those risks in 2008 are to blame who did that.

Take bg look whole picture it surely looks quite an organised effort to shove bad debts to governments then force them into austerity measures no doubt massive sale of assets.

Believe it or not there are plenty on the political right who agree with you. . Daniel Hannan, for example, has long argued that it is a debasement of the capitalist system to allow banks to make massive private profits in the good times but to socialise their losses - I.e. shove them on to us taxpayers - when things go bad.

The problem this time, however, isn't simply a matter of banks going to the wall due to dodgy loans. The flow of money has been disrupted to the extent that sovereign states are at risk of going bankrupt, and none of the half-measures taken so far have come close to addressing the chronic cause of the problem (the inability of weaker economies to remain competitive when locked at the same exchange rate with much stronger ones, particularly Germany).

[mertle]

Originally Posted by Chris

Believe it or not there are plenty on the political right who agree with you. . Daniel Hannan, for example, has long argued that it is a debasement of the capitalist system to allow banks to make massive private profits in the good times but to socialise their losses - I.e. shove them on to us taxpayers - when things go bad.

The problem this time, however, isn't simply a matter of banks going to the wall due to dodgy loans. The flow of money has been disrupted to the extent that sovereign states are at risk of going bankrupt, and none of the half-measures taken so far have come close to addressing the chronic cause of the problem (the inability of weaker economies to remain competitive when locked at the same exchange rate with much stronger ones, particularly Germany).

yep I am sure this what happening but think this happening ontop of the eurozone problem too.

Understand the thinking behind eurozone was american style state system.

Problem is europe we have inherent cultures of divisions would never work with that and language barriers.

What worked in america dont necessary mean it works in europe. The system half baked because inherent squabbles. Only way was to disguard those division for the common good. You hear here the anti europe lobby no doubt other nations got same lobbyists culture.

Such us blocking policies other nations doing the same for selfish needs.

It in strange way originally it was working when only small amount countries was involved but soon it got bloated it hit the buffers.

They expanded too quickly should really kept it elitist. The other was how much was it down to false accounting when greece was allowed in. Who did there accounting certain american bank.

However the problems have been made worse impacted by wall street fiasco 2008 the ponze scheme the sub blime fiasco's.

Think they can recover if the money men cut some slack.

Also means union may have to also look at itself revert back to elitist system with only few members.

Now not advicating they give money to lost causes hese money men or throw it in gutter. They must understand some countries caused preasures by bailing banks. Not all of it was self harm.

IF they understand say take those bank bailouts out the picture then reconsider the strength of economy without it then they help evert crisis. The other is why not for period ease the interests for short term to stop defaults but long term get gains. It seems people losing heads rather working together.

Them panicking dont do anything but make situation worse.

Them being sensible to a problem is maybe the situation not being helped by stupid panicky rating agents.

It has not helped IMF could'nt run booze up in brewary with legarde in charge. Her advice been no better than ten year old. those rating agents, IMF caused massive damage.

Its like mistakes over mistakes then bad advice over bad advice. We got people throwing toys out the pram all it needs is common sense all stop being children grow up.

Hopefully once we get out the experts learn from this produce better advice better practises.

The Euro was not designed along the same mechanisms as the US Dollar. If it had been, it wouldn't be in the mess it currently is in.

In the USA there is a system of fiscal transfers between States, which prevents wealth piling up in the rich states such as California to the detriment of the poorer ones. No such system exists in the Eurozone. It would be politically impossible to bring about; it would require Germany to permanently subsidise Greece. It continues to work in the USA because there is a single cultural and political consciousness that prevents resentment over the fact that industrious Californians effectively subsidise large swathes of the rest of the country (California, if independent of the USA, would still be one of the biggest economies in the entire world and IIRC still in the G7). Meanwhile in Europe resentment is already building in Germany as people who have worked hard and saved carefully are asked to hand over more and more of their hard-earned to prop up Greece, which has made far too little effort to reform its own economy into something capable of existing in a monetary union with mighty Germany.

There is no common cultural or political consciousness to diffuse the resentment building in Europe over the rich northern states bailing out the poor southern ones. Quite the opposite. The hare-brained scheme that is the Euro, designed to lash warring, quarrelsome nation states together so as to prevent future conflict, is in danger of actually causing conflict.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Chris

The Euro was not designed along the same mechanisms as the US Dollar. If it had been, it wouldn't be in the mess it currently is in.

In the USA there is a system of fiscal transfers between States, which prevents wealth piling up in the rich states such as California to the detriment of the poorer ones. No such system exists in the Eurozone. It would be politically impossible to bring about; it would require Germany to permanently subsidise Greece. It continues to work in the USA because there is a single cultural and political consciousness that prevents resentment over the fact that industrious Californians effectively subsidise large swathes of the rest of the country (California, if independent of the USA, would still be one of the biggest economies in the entire world and IIRC still in the G7). Meanwhile in Europe resentment is already building in Germany as people who have worked hard and saved carefully are asked to hand over more and more of their hard-earned to prop up Greece, which has made far too little effort to reform its own economy into something capable of existing in a monetary union with mighty Germany.

There is no common cultural or political consciousness to diffuse the resentment building in Europe over the rich northern states bailing out the poor southern ones. Quite the opposite. The hare-brained scheme that is the Euro, designed to lash warring, quarrelsome nation states together so as to prevent future conflict, is in danger of actually causing conflict.

In their eagnerness to shepherd us all into the Euro club by hook, crook, treaty and repeat referendum, the Eurocrats either overlooked or just ignored that reality.

[mertle]

Originally Posted by Chris

The Euro was not designed along the same mechanisms as the US Dollar. If it had been, it wouldn't be in the mess it currently is in.

In the USA there is a system of fiscal transfers between States, which prevents wealth piling up in the rich states such as California to the detriment of the poorer ones. No such system exists in the Eurozone. It would be politically impossible to bring about; it would require Germany to permanently subsidise Greece. It continues to work in the USA because there is a single cultural and political consciousness that prevents resentment over the fact that industrious Californians effectively subsidise large swathes of the rest of the country (California, if independent of the USA, would still be one of the biggest economies in the entire world and IIRC still in the G7). Meanwhile in Europe resentment is already building in Germany as people who have worked hard and saved carefully are asked to hand over more and more of their hard-earned to prop up Greece, which has made far too little effort to reform its own economy into something capable of existing in a monetary union with mighty Germany.

There is no common cultural or political consciousness to diffuse the resentment building in Europe over the rich northern states bailing out the poor southern ones. Quite the opposite. The hare-brained scheme that is the Euro, designed to lash warring, quarrelsome nation states together so as to prevent future conflict, is in danger of actually causing conflict.

sorry should made it clear they did half baked job of trying to copy america union.

Agree I believe divisional resentment exists in america too could threaten there union. The fact they embrase USA my keep it together however unlike usa the europe was trying coble waring factions like you said to ultamately stop wars.

Yet like you say wars might come about due to the selfishness going off. Greece was always funny thing possible should never be embrased.

Think the central union last throw dice to stop it collapsing but will people and there governments totally embrase central union.

Not sure they will too many distrusts germany motives would it been more palitable if uk, france, spain or italy was the main player.

[Osem]

Spain has banned short-selling of shares to try to limit price moves after markets fell sharply on fears the country may need a full bailout.

Spain's market regulator blocked the practice for three months to try to restore order after sharp falls in bonds and shares.

"Short-selling" is a way that traders can make money by betting on falling share prices.

Italy has also banned short-selling of financial stocks for one week.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18950896

However we need not worry about any of this because:

Spain's economy minister denied the country needed more help.

Yeah right! lol

[snowey]

Originally Posted by mertle

To me this now showing this deliberate act of sabotage by those with money.

Even experts said these stimulas should elevaited fears.

Does anybody think there may be some sort organised structure to this.

We seen the money men witholding 3rd worlds purse strings.

The banks sure was deliberate act which they new the governments would bail giving them prime position to take on governments. By heck one by one they taking them down bigtime.

Can we stop this act of terrorism on our economies.

Totally agree with you..

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by Chris

The Euro was not designed along the same mechanisms as the US Dollar. If it had been, it wouldn't be in the mess it currently is in.

In the USA there is a system of fiscal transfers between States, which prevents wealth piling up in the rich states such as California to the detriment of the poorer ones. No such system exists in the Eurozone. It would be politically impossible to bring about; it would require Germany to permanently subsidise Greece. It continues to work in the USA because there is a single cultural and political consciousness that prevents resentment over the fact that industrious Californians effectively subsidise large swathes of the rest of the country (California, if independent of the USA, would still be one of the biggest economies in the entire world and IIRC still in the G7). Meanwhile in Europe resentment is already building in Germany as people who have worked hard and saved carefully are asked to hand over more and more of their hard-earned to prop up Greece, which has made far too little effort to reform its own economy into something capable of existing in a monetary union with mighty Germany.

There is no common cultural or political consciousness to diffuse the resentment building in Europe over the rich northern states bailing out the poor southern ones. Quite the opposite. The hare-brained scheme that is the Euro, designed to lash warring, quarrelsome nation states together so as to prevent future conflict, is in danger of actually causing conflict.

Excellent Chris

[Itshim]

Originally Posted by Sirius

Excellent Chris

May I second that well "said" Chris

---------- Post added at 08:59 ---------- Previous post was at 08:54 ----------

Originally Posted by Osem

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18950896

However we need not worry about any of this because:



Yeah right! lol

Did not say for how long no help needed. The way it is going- I say it will in two to three years. That`s politicians for you

[Osem]

Could Germany now be set for a downgrade?

Credit ratings agency Moody's has changed its outlook for Germany's AAA credit rating to negative, the first step towards a possible downgrade.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18963810

Wonder if this news might focus a few minds on what's going on.

[Itshim]

Originally Posted by Osem

Could Germany now be set for a downgrade?



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18963810

Wonder if this news might focus a few minds on what's going on.

Somehow I doubt it.

It's kicking off, Pru:

08.05 The panic continues. Spanish borrowing costs on ten year debt have marched towards the 8pc mark this morning, at 7.74pc. Two year borrowing costs have surpassed the 7pc mark for the first time since 1996, and Italian yields aren't that far behind.
In short, things are bad.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/d...isis-live.html

[Osem]

I dare say the Eurocrats will now have some more meetings about meetings whilst ordering new supplies of sand in which to bury their heads...

[27monksbury]

When you think of all the great intellects that there are in the world, why can't they reset the world economy? These so called experts must be payed huge bonuses by the banks because only they have the expertise to run such a complicated system, and if we didn't pay them they would leave. What to destroy another bank? After the second world war, the Marshal plan was formulated. Germany was smashed to pieces, England had fought 5 ruinous years of war and was skint. Europe was a basket case. However, in charge were people of stature, the Americans stood by us. Now its the turn of the Germans, America, China, and the rest of the world to chip in. Fat chance! Money is only an idea, surely the same rate of interest, say 2 percent could be charged,payed back over 100 years Everyone in the world guarantee payment. Anyway if we go down, we all go down this should put the wind up in Frankfort, London, and Washington.