TalkTalk tracking you, phorm? - Page 14

Sirius · 08-09-2010, 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

They could even, again if speculation is to be believed, put recommendations on the sites in the Index. 'Mr Smith of 53 Acacia Avenue, Streatham (Username smith1.nogirlfriend@talktalk.net) recommends this site, he's visited it 300 times in the past month!

You say speculation however you have also said that they CAN do it. They might not be doing it now but they could and will its just a matter of who has the guts to do it first.

Detica can today be used to track file sharing and with minor software changes be the next Phorm tomorrow.

Ignitionnet · 08-09-2010, 21:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius

You say speculation however you have also said that they CAN do it. They might not be doing it now but they could and will its just a matter of who has the guts to do it first.

Detica can today be used to track file sharing and with minor software changes be the next Phorm tomorrow.

Every ISP can do it. Nearly all of them have the equipment in place to do so if they chose. They've also had this equipment in place for years and haven't.

TalkTalk don't need the Huawei boxes on their network re-requesting pages and garnering attention to do it. It could be done utterly invisibly. The only reason to have the Huawei boxes there is for the reasons TalkTalk have mentioned they have the kit there, they gain nothing having that equipment there if they just want to profile users. Every TalkTalk user goes through DPI equipment which has the capacity to profile and always have.

It's not a matter of guts it's simply illegal. No ifs, buts, room for debate. Cross referencing browsing data with RADIUS logs without a warrant is illegal. I don't need to know much about the law to know that so I'm quite happy saying it

If anything CView is far preferable as it is, by design, anonymised. Most DPI kit it's a case of some clicks of a mouse.

Rchivist · 08-09-2010, 21:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius

You say speculation however you have also said that they CAN do it. They might not be doing it now but they could and will its just a matter of who has the guts to do it first.

Detica can today be used to track file sharing and with minor software changes be the next Phorm tomorrow.

These Huawei patent applications give food for thought.

Patent Family
http://v3.espacenet.com/inpadoc?DB=E...006813A1&KC=A1

European Version
http://v3.espacenet.com/publicationD...139181A1&KC=A1

http://v3.espacenet.com/publicationD...C&locale=en_GB

full version available via popup
http://v3.espacenet.com/espacenetDoc...=A1&popup=true

Tinfoil hat warning - this is a patent application by Huawei, it is not necessarily a description of the detailed deployment of the proposed TalkTalk monitoring system nor is it necessarily a description of what was actually done during the trial. And the patent site isn't very easy to use.

But as the thread has moved on to what "could" be done... patent applications can be quite informative.

Ignitionnet · 08-09-2010, 21:56

Per many previous posts this system is also being used by TalkTalk for a parental control product, they are also using it for stats gathering.

This requires content classification.

I think I also referred to classification here.

This system does indeed profile / classify / whichever. It does this on the content and in no way references this back to the customer who originally requested the information. Indeed, in a similar way to CView, the system goes out of its' way to anonymise prior to profiling - the profiler receives a URL to profile, it has no visibility, ever, of which user requested the URL it is re-requesting.

This system as built very simply cannot reference back to specific users - both this system and CView have this in common, and were built in this manner by design.

If you want to discuss what 'could' be done it's really very simple. Absolutely anything can be taken from and inserted into a bitstream by your ISP right down to intercepting , decrypting and re-encoding certain types of SSL traffic.

There, that was easy

bluecar1 · 08-09-2010, 21:59

yep, some of those detail how some huawei kit can categorise web pages, combined with DNS / DHCP logs that could be used in various ways to up-sell various information about talk talks customers

i wonder if they would make that opt-in??

problem is with DPI kit it tends to be all or nothing, so users don't have an option to opt-in or out of the interception / data gathering, often they can only opt-out of the "value add" service that uses the data gathered

Stuart · 08-09-2010, 22:04

Another couple of points (one raised by Ignitionnet above, but worth repeating IMO)

1) Just because the technology exists that can do something, it does not follow that ISPs have the will or legal right to do so.

2) Just because a company patents an idea, it does not follow that they will implement that idea. For example, Apple have patented a dock for their laptops that looks remarkably like an iMac and essentially turns a mac laptop into an iMac. They have also patented a custom bike that can also power an ipod. Neither idea has actually made it into a product.

Personally, I don't think this thread should go too far into what they *could* do. Let's stick with what they *are* doing.

Ignitionnet · 08-09-2010, 22:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluecar1

yep, some of those detail how some huawei kit can categorise web pages, combined with DNS / DHCP logs that could be used in various ways to up-sell various information about talk talks customers

i wonder if they would make that opt-in??

problem is with DPI kit it tends to be all or nothing, so users don't have an option to opt-in or out of the interception / data gathering, often they can only opt-out of the "value add" service that uses the data gathered

Just to clarify there is nothing in the GB patent about cross-referencing with DNS or DHCP. That link exists purely in your mind. In any event given TalkTalk don't use DHCP on their broadband network and DNS would contain no information of value there'd be little point in this anyway.

No they wouldn't make it opt-in because they wouldn't do it. If they were to cross-reference with RADIUS, which they do use, it would per my post above be illegal. No ifs, no buts.

DPI kit does not tend to be all or nothing at all. Please see the many examples of DPI equipment being used, perfectly reasonably and legally, throughout the UK and the world.

Your obvious hatred of DPI appears to be clouding your judgement to the extent where you are sharing your paranoia with us as fact. Time to take a moment and make a cuppa.

EDIT: Depending who your ISP is you may well be going through a DPI engine to make your post - I am.

bluecar1 · 08-09-2010, 22:12

the thing is, they are collecting and passing the URL's onto a third party piece of kit, they are categorising the pages on that kit, and the manufacturer of that kit has various patents about categorising web pages by content

that seems to be acknowledged here and by TT

the missing piece of the puzzle for myself is what is the business driver for this project

the service will be provided free, so there is no return on investment, unless they are going to use the categorisation and other data collected in a different way, most likely in my mind is some form of targeted advertising system

---------- Post added at 22:12 ---------- Previous post was at 22:10 ----------

thing i even though there is no link to dns or dhcp, there are plenty of system that work now by profiling the browser finger print to identify the user so dns/dhcp are now old technology in this game

Ignitionnet · 08-09-2010, 22:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluecar1

the thing is, they are collecting and passing the URL's onto a third party piece of kit, they are categorising the pages on that kit, and the manufacturer of that kit has various patents about categorising web pages by content

that seems to be acknowledged here and by TT

*Nods* we've established this.

Quote:

the missing piece of the puzzle for myself is what is the business driver for this project

the service will be provided free, so there is no return on investment, unless they are going to use the categorisation and other data collected in a different way, most likely in my mind is some form of targeted advertising system

This is odd. Previously there were arguments in this thread that this system was of commercial value. Mentioned originally by you actually. Are you saying this argument is spurious?

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluecar1

thing i even though there is no link to dns or dhcp, there are plenty of system that work now by profiling the browser finger print to identify the user so dns/dhcp are now old technology in this game

As the profiler isn't passed the original request complete with browser information this is also a non-issue.

EDIT: Woot!

Your browser fingerprint appears to be unique among the 1,162,488 tested so far.

Currently, we estimate that your browser has a fingerprint that conveys at least 20.15 bits of identifying information.

I'm a very special boy! They don't have to waste my drive space with tracking cookies anymore!

Stuart · 08-09-2010, 22:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluecar1

[/COLOR]thing i even though there is no link to dns or dhcp, there are plenty of system that work now by profiling the browser finger print to identify the user so dns/dhcp are now old technology in this game

And little evidence that Talk Talk (or any ISP) either are using them or considering doing so.

**Hugh** · 08-09-2010, 22:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluecar1

yep, some of those detail how some huawei kit can categorise web pages, combined with DNS / DHCP logs that could be used in various ways to up-sell various information about talk talks customers

i wonder if they would make that opt-in??

problem is with DPI kit it tends to be all or nothing, so users don't have an option to opt-in or out of the interception / data gathering, often they can only opt-out of the "value add" service that uses the data gathered

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluecar1

the thing is, they are collecting and passing the URL's onto a third party piece of kit, they are categorising the pages on that kit, and the manufacturer of that kit has various patents about categorising web pages by content

that seems to be acknowledged here and by TT

the missing piece of the puzzle for myself is what is the business driver for this project

the service will be provided free, so there is no return on investment, unless they are going to use the categorisation and other data collected in a different way, most likely in my mind is some form of targeted advertising system

---------- Post added at 22:12 ---------- Previous post was at 22:10 ----------

thing i even though there is no link to dns or dhcp, there are plenty of system that work now by profiling the browser finger print to identify the user so dns/dhcp are now old technology in this game

Great to see flexibility in a proposition, adapting to new information...

bluecar1 · 08-09-2010, 22:28

just showing the technology is there to negate the need for the third party kit to access dns/dhcp logs to provide targeted services

and as it is there it will be a matter of time before it is used (if not already, kindsight i believe uses it)

Ignitionnet · 08-09-2010, 22:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluecar1

just showing the technology is there to negate the need for the third party kit to access dns/dhcp logs to provide targeted services

and as it is there it will be a matter of time before it is used (if not already, kindsight i believe uses it)

I've no doubt it already is being used in lieu of tracking cookies by ad networks. Not by TalkTalk or any other ISP in the UK as part of an in-line tracking though.

bluecar1 · 08-09-2010, 22:31

that is not flexibility it is showing there are two possible routes to identify users, one by integrating it into isp held information by the isp, the other without integration by the third party

**Hugh** · 08-09-2010, 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluecar1

just showing the technology is there to negate the need for the third party kit to access dns/dhcp logs to provide targeted services

and as it is there it will be a matter of time before it is used (if not already, kindsight i believe uses it)

You appear, once again, to have missed the point - you proposed a set of circumstances which supported your original position of TalkTalk's nefarious deeds; when it was pointed out that the circumstances you proposed were not, in fact, feasible, you found something else to support your proposition.

It would appear (imho) that you have already decided what the outcome is, you are just trying to make the facts fit the theory....