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Old 04-12-2017, 23:38   #1066
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Re: Brexit discussion

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Originally Posted by Mick View Post
And donít ever accuse me of lying again. (If I suspect correctly what youíre trying to do)
No need to .. everyone can read what you did (and didn't) say ...
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Old 05-12-2017, 01:15   #1067
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Re: Brexit discussion

Poster Cold Soup nails the Irish problem on FT.com
Quote:
It is incompetent and irresponsible for the government to have triggered Article 50 without having first agreed within itself a clear view on what the UK wants to happen in Northern Ireland. It is disgraceful for the government (including the DUP) not to have reached that agreement in the time thereafter.
It now appears that we have not been negotiating with the EU on the issue at all - how can we have been when we don't seem to know what our own preferred outcome is? It looks much more like we have been asking the EU to come up with a solution to a problem we have created. The lack of statesmanship from the UK is astonishing.
https://www.ft.com/content/b3fdd8e6-...9-c64b1c09b482
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Old 05-12-2017, 08:50   #1068
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Re: Brexit discussion

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Originally Posted by 1andrew1 View Post
Until Brexiters raise their game and solve the Irish border issue, Brexit can't happen. Pretending that it's not an issue and that no deal is better than a bad deal won't make it go away.
I actually wondered if we'd staged it to ensure no deal or a way of get more concessions. I couldn't quite believe Mrs May and Arlene weren't singing from the same hymn sheet. It's Machiavellian genius if she did, the grossest of incompetence if she didn't.

Several other things occurred to me, yesterday we were told that if no deal was achieved by today (now yesterday ) the there would be no opportunity to discuss it again until March, now all of a sudden we can do it next week after all, evidence if it were needed that they are as desperate for a deal as we are.

If we weren't setting the whole thing up to fail why did we agree to every demand, I think we set out our position all wrong at the start, focussing on anything but a trade deal as a failure was really starting of with one hand tied behind our backs, we should have played our hand as If we were leaving with no deal and anything on top was a bonus.

I could have it completely wrong, it's just the way it looks to me.
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Old 05-12-2017, 09:26   #1069
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Re: Brexit discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy View Post
If we weren't setting the whole thing up to fail why did we agree to every demand, I think we set out our position all wrong at the start, focussing on anything but a trade deal as a failure was really starting of with one hand tied behind our backs, we should have played our hand as If we were leaving with no deal and anything on top was a bonus.

I could have it completely wrong, it's just the way it looks to me.
It's pretty easy for us to have no deal, we just don't do anything. Although you still have the problem of Northern Ireland amongst others. Although It seems the government have been giving assurances to various companies which are presumably about the nature of the relationship with the EU post-Brexit.

It might be that the British Government has spent months working on the 'divorce bill' and assumed once that was agreed the Germans would tell Ireland to knock it off and move onto the next stage of talks over their objections. When that didn't happen they tried to fudge it and it fell down on the matter of the DUP.

The idea that German car manufacturers wouldn't tolerate the lack of a deal that was popular during the campaign seems to be the basis of the government's strategy. Now we have been taken aback by the lack of domestic pressure on EU governments to do a deal as well as the unified approach they've all taken to the talks has surprised us. Hence the bigger bill, hence the lack of an answer on Ireland.

Last edited by Damien; 05-12-2017 at 09:32.
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Old 05-12-2017, 09:46   #1070
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Re: Brexit discussion

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Originally Posted by Damien View Post
It's pretty easy for us to have no deal, we just don't do anything. Although you still have the problem of Northern Ireland amongst others. Although It seems the government have been giving assurances to various companies which are presumably about the nature of the relationship with the EU post-Brexit.

It might be that the British Government has spent months working on the 'divorce bill' and assumed once that was agreed the Germans would tell Ireland to knock it off and move onto the next stage of talks over their objections. When that didn't happen they tried to fudge it and it fell down on the matter of the DUP.

The idea that German car manufacturers wouldn't tolerate the lack of a deal that was popular during the campaign seems to be the basis of the government's strategy. Now we have been taken aback by the lack of domestic pressure on EU governments to do a deal as well as the unified approach they've all taken to the talks has surprised us. Hence the bigger bill, hence the lack of an answer on Ireland.
Theresa May knew the Brexit campaigns lied about Turkey joining the EU. She knew they also lied about the £350m pw claim. Why did she believe that German car manufacturers wouldn't tolerate no deal?

Last edited by 1andrew1; 05-12-2017 at 10:03.
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Old 05-12-2017, 10:13   #1071
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Re: Brexit discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien View Post
It's pretty easy for us to have no deal, we just don't do anything. Although you still have the problem of Northern Ireland amongst others. Although It seems the government have been giving assurances to various companies which are presumably about the nature of the relationship with the EU post-Brexit.

It might be that the British Government has spent months working on the 'divorce bill' and assumed once that was agreed the Germans would tell Ireland to knock it off and move onto the next stage of talks over their objections. When that didn't happen they tried to fudge it and it fell down on the matter of the DUP.

The idea that German car manufacturers wouldn't tolerate the lack of a deal that was popular during the campaign seems to be the basis of the government's strategy. Now we have been taken aback by the lack of domestic pressure on EU governments to do a deal as well as the unified approach they've all taken to the talks has surprised us. Hence the bigger bill, hence the lack of an answer on Ireland.
I can't remember the Leave campaign talking much about N. Ireland? I suppose it did not play well with the simplistic narrative they were selling. Mrs May does have an almost impossible conundrum to resolve: the anti-EU cabal in her cabinet and the DUP will stop any EU-tainted compromise whereas the NI people as a whole, who don't forget voted 56% to Remain, will be horrified what a hard border would lead to.

I cannot see how we would be surprised about the unified approach you refer to? The EU leadership must have, as a priority, the preservation of the long term future of the project even if it means a financial penalty. In the same way, although the Leave voters were duped about this, the UK will suffer a similar financial penalty due to Leaving.
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Old 05-12-2017, 10:32   #1072
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Re: Brexit discussion

It's been a staggering 24 hours hasn't it? A deal was apparently reached, giving NI special status. Wales, Scotland and London went 'hang on a minute', we want some of this. Then the DUP said 'no dice', no special status for NI and here we are, back where we started.

How did this happen? Was it arrogance that led to the assumption all of the above would be fine with this or incompetence? I am getting the feeling that HMG would pay full price for a sofa in DFS at this rate...

Now, this could be a sneaky scheme, knowing that the DUP et al would kick off, to extend the CU and SM status across the whole of the UK by the back door but, as it stands, I feel I may be crediting HMG with too much intelligence at this point.
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Old 05-12-2017, 11:36   #1073
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Re: Brexit discussion

I read that an EU Official is suggesting the DUP intervention and May’s subsequent withdrawal from a deal, was staged.
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Old 05-12-2017, 11:40   #1074
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Re: Brexit discussion

If N. Ireland are that bothered about staying in, let them stay in along with the southern part of the island.

a) It reduces the size of the UK - which should mean a decrease in the money spent on a wide range of stuff relating to N Ireland

b) It allows continuance of the 'cross border' trade that goes on between North & South

c) It puts a potential EU trading partner on our doorstep

d) The Isle of Man will flourish as the center of smuggling operations

e) Any future political issues between North & South are bugger all to do with us
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Old 05-12-2017, 11:56   #1075
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Re: Brexit discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick View Post
I read that an EU Official is suggesting the DUP intervention and Mayís subsequent withdrawal from a deal, was staged.
Why? It makes them look like idiots.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth View Post
If N. Ireland are that bothered about staying in, let them stay in along with the southern part of the island.
Right....Can't see any problems with that....
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Old 05-12-2017, 12:12   #1076
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Re: Brexit discussion

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Originally Posted by Damien View Post
Why? It makes them look like idiots.



Right....Can't see any problems with that....
Agree with both.

We need new leadership. May lacks total leadership qualities. Her Election campaign was extremely weak. She has fumbled, she has dithered and HMG as it stands has completely botched the Brexit process as it stands. I however still donít want a Corbyn led Labour Government.
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Old 05-12-2017, 12:29   #1077
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Re: Brexit discussion

Apparently the Irish government will allow 'rephrasing' of the deal so long as the core principle remains...
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Old 05-12-2017, 12:31   #1078
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Re: Brexit discussion

They have changed their tune, Irish PM said he was not going to change the text, at all.
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Old 05-12-2017, 13:06   #1079
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Re: Brexit discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick View Post
We need new leadership. May lacks total leadership qualities. Her Election campaign was extremely weak. She has fumbled, she has dithered and HMG as it stands has completely botched the Brexit process as it stands..
And who would you suggest? as the governing party are not exactly enamoured with outstanding candidates.

---------- Post added at 12:06 ---------- Previous post was at 12:06 ----------

Quote:
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I however still donít want a Corbyn led Labour Government.
The way it stands we are looking at a minority government again at the next General Election be it the Conservatives or Labour who win the most seats as personally l cannot see either winning a overall majority.
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Old 05-12-2017, 13:06   #1080
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Re: Brexit discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick View Post
Agree with both.

We need new leadership. May lacks total leadership qualities. Her Election campaign was extremely weak. She has fumbled, she has dithered and HMG as it stands has completely botched the Brexit process as it stands. I however still donít want a Corbyn led Labour Government.
Got to agree 100% here ... I do feel the damage is done though re: Corbyn. Unless he messes up big time, which is by no means impossible, Mrs May (and more importantly, the out-of-touch Party right wing) has gifted the keys of No. 10 to Labour
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