Crisis in the NHS

[Mr K]

Whatever, the Govt. have had 8 years to do something. They've done nothing except impose real term cuts in the face of increasing demand; what did they (and those that voted for them) think the result would be?

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by Mr K

It can be predicted and this crisis was predicted. The Flu was going to be bad this year, forecast months ago, coupled with the Xmas break, cold weather, staff shortages and ageing population, it really isn't rocket science. We just haven't invested enough or employed and trained enough staff in the NHS. Poor management maybe a factor, but it's being used as a smokescreen to try and get away from the fact we're not paying or valuing the NHS or it's staff enough.

On top of that we've got a govt. who have an agenda to run the NHS down. Jeremy Hunt is very quiet, probably waiting for this promotion to Deputy PM having achieved all his objectives no doubt.

Any timing can NEVER be accurately predicted. Do you cancel non-essential operations, just in case?

Similar problems happened BEFORE 2010, and are also happening in Scotland and Wales.

Originally Posted by Mr K

Whatever, the Govt. have had 8 years to do something. They've done nothing except impose real term cuts in the face of increasing demand; what did they (and those that voted for them) think the result would be?

And that’s why we will never progress - people don’t want to solve problems, they just want to blame and score points.

Difficult to have a cogent and reasonable discourse when a post begins with "Whatever" - what are you, 15 years old?

[nomadking]

They do things so much better across the EU, don't they?
Last year.

French hospitals are at breaking point due to a particularly virulent strain of flu that has spread across the country. Here's what you need to know about what's going on. So just how bad is the flu epidemic?
It’s bad enough for France’s Health Minister Marisol Touraine (see pic below) to call on hospitals across the country to delay non-urgent operations in order to free up hospital beds for patients suffering from flu.

Cold weather, a flu epidemic and overcrowding are among the causes that have plunged hospitals in several European countries into a care crisis.

Even high-tax Sweden is in the grip of a debate over staff shortages while flu is stretching Germany to breaking point and has triggered emergency measures in France to keep services going.

Karolinska University Hospital in Solna and Huddinge have been in crisis mode since Thursday morning due to overcrowding sparked by a sudden increase in patients seeking emergency care.

A recent report on Swedish television about the state of the country's healthcare system has shocked the population. For years hospitals have been suffering from nursing staff shortages, beds have been left unoccupied and patients face long waiting times for operations. And according to the report the problems have taken on life-threatening proportions in many areas.

2011 report.

On paper, Germany fares well in terms of ratios of doctors
and nurses to population, with densities above the EU
average. Despite this high coverage, recent estimates
suggest that approximately 17,000 full-time physicians were
lacking in 2010; this shortage will rise to 56,000 in 2020
and 166,000 in 2030.

2009

A staffing crisis is looming in Swiss hospitals, with 70 per cent reporting serious problems in recruiting medical and care personnel.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Hugh

So why don't we try a different model, like the French or German ones?

Because people will scream "privatisation", when in fact, the models are a mixture of public, private not-for-profit, and private. As long as the service is free at the point of use, which was the original NHS maxim, who cares how it is delivered.

Anything but the USA model, which is the biggest cause of bankruptcy for that country.

Who are we inviting to help us, who are advising us, not the French or Germans but Americans so whose system will we end up adopting and having seen how bad the private sector has been for the ambulance service I don't think it's a good idea to further involve them tbh

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by Hugh

And that’s why we will never progress - people don’t want to solve problems, they just want to blame and score points.

Difficult to have a cogent and reasonable discourse when a post begins with "Whatever" - what are you, 15 years old?

Slightly older Hugh....

The 'whatever' was frustration at the Govt. having done nothing, even if was part privatisation or the German/French system. They have just let the NHS rot, as they and their families don't use it. Do something/'whatever', not nothing except make cuts.

You say you'd be happy to pay more tax? Try putting forward a motion at the next Tory conference, good luck ! If it's not increasing the wealth of those there they won't be interested.

---------- Post added at 20:07 ---------- Previous post was at 19:46 ----------

Jeremy has said 'sorry' anyway, so that's all sorted then....
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-42552267

My Nephew is much improved but docs were flummoxed as to what caused him to stop breathing, they said it's possible it could have been his temperature and his white blood cell count was high. They warned it could happen again, so that's not a good thing to be told.

They kept him in overnight but after being taken in the Ambulance at 7pm, they did not get seen till about 11.30pm last night. Utter shambles.

[denphone]

Originally Posted by Mick

My Nephew is much improved but docs were flummoxed as to what caused him to stop breathing, they said it's possible it could have been his temperature and his white blood cell count was high. They warned it could happen again, so that's not a good thing to be told.

.

l am glad he is much improved Mick as usually a high white blood cell count isn't a specific disease, but it can indicate another problem, such as infection, stress, inflammation, trauma, allergy, or certain diseases. That's why a high white blood cell count usually requires further investigation.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Mick

My Nephew is much improved but docs were flummoxed as to what caused him to stop breathing, they said it's possible it could have been his temperature and his white blood cell count was high. They warned it could happen again, so that's not a good thing to be told.

They kept him in overnight but after being taken in the Ambulance at 7pm, they did not get seen till about 11.30pm last night. Utter shambles.

Glad to hear he is on the mend .. good news indeed.

[denphone]

Originally Posted by Mick

They kept him in overnight but after being taken in the Ambulance at 7pm, they did not get seen till about 11.30pm last night. Utter shambles.

Sadly even going back under the previous administration that was happening sometimes as l was up there several times and waited quite a few hours each time so nothing has changed or improved much Mick under the current administration so as Hugh says perhaps we need to rethink the future gong forward of the NHS as its obviously to many the NHS as it stands is failing big time.

Originally Posted by Mr K

Slightly older Hugh....

The 'whatever' was frustration at the Govt. having done nothing, even if was part privatisation or the German/French system. They have just let the NHS rot, as they and their families don't use it. Do something/'whatever', not nothing except make cuts.

You say you'd be happy to pay more tax? Try putting forward a motion at the next Tory conference, good luck ! If it's not increasing the wealth of those there they won't be interested.

---------- Post added at 20:07 ---------- Previous post was at 19:46 ----------

Jeremy has said 'sorry' anyway, so that's all sorted then....
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-42552267

Once again you focused on half of my statement, overlooking the second part of the statement about alternative approaches.

btw, last Tax Year, as I contracted half the year and was Permie the rest, I paid quite a lot in PAYE and NI, so you can see I have no issue paying tax (I could have drastically reduced my Tax and NI bill by setting up as a Limited Company, but chose not to). Also, I haven’t been to a Party Conference in over 20 years.

How much extra tax would you personally be willing to pay?

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Once again you focused on half of my statement, overlooking the second part of the statement about alternative approaches.

btw, last Tax Year, as I contracted half the year and was Permie the rest, I paid quite a lot in PAYE and NI, so you can see I have no issue paying tax (I could have drastically reduced my Tax and NI bill by setting up as a Limited Company, but chose not to). Also, I haven’t been to a Party Conference in over 20 years.

How much extra tax would you personally be willing to pay?

What alternative approaches are there? The current set-up is generally free at the point of delivery (bar prescriptions, car-parking/travel to hospitals) and with services funded by tax, NI, land sales, car-parking, shop rents etc. It is delivered by a combination of private and public sector staff.

Are we talking about a system of insurance instead or maybe something that incentivises good healthly lifestyles?

---------- Post added at 21:50 ---------- Previous post was at 21:47 ----------

Originally Posted by Mick

My Nephew is much improved but docs were flummoxed as to what caused him to stop breathing, they said it's possible it could have been his temperature and his white blood cell count was high. They warned it could happen again, so that's not a good thing to be told.

They kept him in overnight but after being taken in the Ambulance at 7pm, they did not get seen till about 11.30pm last night. Utter shambles.

Good news he's home and much improved but a double trauma for everyone involved.

[heero_yuy]

Originally Posted by denphone

Sadly even going back under the previous administration that was happening sometimes as l was up there several times and waited quite a few hours each time so nothing has changed or improved much Mick under the current administration so as Hugh says perhaps we need to rethink the future gong forward of the NHS as its obviously to many the NHS as it stands is failing big time.

The problem IMHO: The NHS is based on a 1948 model of society where the elderly were generally looked after by their own families in their own houses even when quite ill.

Most people were proficient in first aid and didn't go running to their doctor or A&E when they split a fingernail.

Also the treatments that were provided were pretty basic by todays standards and much less expensive to implement.

Today the snowflakes can't look after themselves and any slight problem is a major illness to be dealt with a the flick of a button for instant gratification like any other problem that they encounter.

Families don't look after their own and expect the state to pick up the tab however expensive that may be.

The NHS has to continue to be reformed and made fit for purpose but the other elements surrounding it have to alse be taken into account. Just playing party politics with it and assuming that somehow it was in some kind of golden age under either party in the past is just to be very naïve.

As illustrated in Nomadking's post the problems are not unique to the NHS but Europe wide.

There needs to be a serious discussion about how much treatment the NHS will provide free at the point of delivery. Obviously A&E but what about elective proceedures such as breast operations and IVF?

Breast operations? I hope you are not including breast cancer treatment.After all a woman who has to lose a breast as a consequence may not have the wherewithal to pay for reconstructive surgery.

Originally Posted by Hugh

So why don't we try a different model, like the French or German ones?

Because people will scream "privatisation", when in fact, the models are a mixture of public, private not-for-profit, and private. As long as the service is free at the point of use, which was the original NHS maxim, who cares how it is delivered.

I largely agree with you. Especially how people will shout privatisation so no progress will ever be made. I think the whole debate around nationalisation vs privatisation cripples this country as people dogmatically insist on either one or the other irrespective of circumstance. A problem which doesn't exist on the continent who are a lot more pragmatic about this kind of thing.

One point about the French model though is not it's not quite free at the point of use. You do have to pay upfront for some minor things and then later get reimbursed depending on various forms of public and private insurance you can get.

As important as free at the point of use to me is the ease of use. Anything that gets into paperwork, reimbursements and so on I think should be avoided. As well as the cost of the America system the stress of getting the correct paperwork, taxes and coverage in addition to becoming sick must be horrible.

---------- Post added at 09:21 ---------- Previous post was at 09:12 ----------

Originally Posted by heero_yuy

Today the snowflakes can't look after themselves and any slight problem is a major illness to be dealt with a the flick of a button for instant gratification like any other problem that they encounter.?

Is this really the issue?

It seems the biggest burdens on the NHS are an aging population, obesity and alcohol. In 1948 there were fewer old people relative to the population and fewer treatments available. I am not sure the problem with the NHS is snowflakes using it for minor conditions.