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Catalonia Independence
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Old 01-10-2017, 09:04   #1
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Catalonia Independence

Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins.

The Spanish police have already removed ballot boxes from several polling stations.

I don't expect this to end any time soon.
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Old 01-10-2017, 09:47   #2
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Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins

somewhere else where the will of the people is ignored how European of them
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Old 01-10-2017, 09:57   #3
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Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins

I dare say they don't know what they're voting for so if the vote does go the 'wrong' way, no doubt they''ll be given another chance to come up with the right answer...
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Old 01-10-2017, 10:07   #4
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Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins

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Originally Posted by papa smurf View Post
somewhere else where the will of the people is ignored how European of them
You think that the vote, declared illegal by the country's constitutional court, is the "will of the people"? I am surprised that you take the rule of law as optional ..
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Old 01-10-2017, 10:19   #5
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Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins

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Originally Posted by Osem View Post
I dare say they don't know what they're voting for so if the vote does go the 'wrong' way, no doubt they''ll be given another chance to come up with the right answer...
doubtful the jackboot has been deployed. Spain is running scared over regional independence and the EU's top dictators will be frantically ordering the put down of the will of the people of this region .
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Old 01-10-2017, 10:29   #6
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Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins

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Originally Posted by ianch99 View Post
You think that the vote, declared illegal by the country's constitutional court, is the "will of the people"? I am surprised that you take the rule of law as optional ..
Not as simple as that in theory.

Catalonia has it's own Parliament with a President (currently Carles Puigdemont) appointed by the King (after party or coalition selection).

The Parliament, as ordinary representative of the state in Catalonia, they promulgate laws in the region in name of the king.
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Old 01-10-2017, 11:28   #7
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Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins

This is, in the short term at least, a no-win situation. Madrid have handled it very badly. They know losing Catalonia would cause extreme pain for their economy and the country as a whole, they have shown extreme recalcitrance in their dealings with it. The whole situation is a mess.

On another note seems for some no opportunity to take a pop at the European Union and other institutions should go untaken. They quite literally cannot support this referendum. They'd be accused of 'meddling' by the Express, two of the top four Google entries, either way.
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Old 01-10-2017, 11:45   #8
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Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins

No so much of a stand-off anymore.

https://order-order.com/2017/10/01/s...atalan-voters/

I don't think this is going to be forgotten in a very long time.

If the Spanish authorities are so sure it's all illegal and the result will hold no water why don't they just ignore it. Is there really any need to beat people up for voting?
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Last edited by Osem; 01-10-2017 at 11:50.
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Old 01-10-2017, 11:52   #9
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Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins

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Originally Posted by Osem View Post
No so much of a stand-off anymore.

https://order-order.com/2017/10/01/s...atalan-voters/

I don't think this is going to be forgotten in a very long time.
this is the EUROPE of tomorrow any trouble send in the jackboot brigade and beat the people into submission .
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Old 01-10-2017, 12:04   #10
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Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins

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Originally Posted by papa smurf View Post
this is the EUROPE of tomorrow any trouble send in the jackboot brigade and beat the people into submission .
I fear it's heading that way I really do. I could totally understand the reaction if these people had stormed a government building or something but it seems a gross overreaction and it'll harden opinion I reckon.

I guess a European army will come in handy if the Eurocrats and their pals decide people are going cold on the prospect of ever more unyielding central control of their lives...
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Last edited by Osem; 01-10-2017 at 12:43.
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Old 01-10-2017, 12:16   #11
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Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem View Post
No so much of a stand-off anymore.

https://order-order.com/2017/10/01/s...atalan-voters/

I don't think this is going to be forgotten in a very long time.

If the Spanish authorities are so sure it's all illegal and the result will hold no water why don't they just ignore it. Is there really any need to beat people up for voting?
They can't ignore it though as the President promised that if the vote was for independence he would would declare it 48 hrs after the result.

Igni is correct, the Spanish Government have handled it very badly.This heavy handedness may be the straw that breaks the camel's back and leads to a unilateral declaration of independence anyway.

I can see more trouble and unrest ahead.
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Old 01-10-2017, 12:31   #12
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Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins

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Originally Posted by pip08456 View Post
They can't ignore it though as the President promised that if the vote was for independence he would would declare it 48 hrs after the result.

Igni is correct, the Spanish Government have handled it very badly.This heavy handedness may be the straw that breaks the camel's back and leads to a unilateral declaration of independence anyway.

I can see more trouble and unrest ahead.
But if it were deemed illegal it wouldn't matter what the President declared would it.

From what I've heard both sides of this have very different views as to legality of the vote and anything which follows from it so it'll be up to higher powers to decide those things I'd have thought, regardless of the outcome.

There's clearly going to be huge resentment as a result of this unwarranted action from Madrid and frankly I can see it escalating quickly if lives are lost.
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Old 01-10-2017, 12:32   #13
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Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins

Frustration at not being able to troll the Brexit thread boiling over in at least one quarter it seems. There are riots and police apparently brutalising people in Spain and it's a precursor to a police state Europe-wide. There will be consequences to this at ECtHR level if it's as it seems, because Spain is probably violating the ECHR.

As of right now though this is nothing to do with Europe or the European Union beyond that Spain is in both. Weird as the concept may seem for those obsessed with that the EUSSR is pervasive and runs everything this is an internal matter within a sovereign member state.

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/934527/...-mariano-rajoy

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Enquirer
Conspicuous silence

The silence from the European Union over developments in largely pro-European Catalonia has been especially conspicuous since Catalan officials appealed to the bloc to mediate the dispute.

In response to the region’s requests for intervention, the European Commission – the EU’s executive arm – repeated that the referendum was an internal Spanish affair and that it respected Spain’s constitutional order.

EU officials refused to engage even as concerns mounted Friday about post-vote violence.

“We will, as everybody else, be watching events unfolding,” commission spokesman Alexander Winterstein said.

Privately, officials are slightly more forthcoming about their fears.

“We are following the whole process with great, great concern,” a senior EU official said last week. The official briefed reporters on condition that she not be named.
Quote:
Even one of Rajoy’s closest EU allies, European Parliament president Antonio Tajani, has refused to explicitly back him and instead called for more dialogue – suggesting Rajoy hasn’t done enough to find a solution.

“I think it’s important to talk on a political level after Monday and to respect laws – Catalan laws and Spanish laws,” Tajani told reporters Friday.

He said he hoped there would be no violence Sunday.

“The rules of politics can’t be with violence,” he said.
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Old 01-10-2017, 12:49   #14
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Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins

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But if it were deemed illegal it wouldn't matter what the President declared would it.

From what I've heard both sides of this have very different views as to legality of the vote and anything which follows from it so it'll be up to higher powers to decide those things I'd have thought, regardless of the outcome.

There's clearly going to be huge resentment as a result of this unwarranted action from Madrid and frankly I can see it escalating quickly if lives are lost.
if the majority voted for Independence regardless of legality it would stir up a hornets nest , and if they did legally declare independence how would that affect membership of the European union ,would they have to reapply for membership .
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Old 01-10-2017, 12:56   #15
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Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins

Is there any question that those in the region who're dead set against independence are being intimidated or prevented from taking part in this vote in order to prevent it happening? I haven't seen/heard any evidence of that. Of course they may well decide that voting legitimises something they consider illegitimate and refuse to take part and I'd fully understand that. Whatever calls for violence there have been by officials either side of the debate, it doesn't look much like those being responsible for it are the ones being beaten in the coverage so far but I'm certain it will happen. It'll be interesting to see what happens with whatever results are obtained from this vote. How anyone can have any confidence in the outcome is beyond me. Who's verifying anything? It's worse than Tower Hamlets. There'll be all sports of claims from one side and the other about undue influence, intimidation, etc. It's a complete mess and a very big one that's for sure. The hornet's nest has been stirring for many years and it won't go away any sooner.
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