Post-Brexit Thread

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Interesting points. I think it's hard to have a single left-right axis for politics these days. It's a lot more complicated than that.

The clearer and scarier axis for me now is the veering towards authoritarianism. Worse still as long as people like the sound of the aims of the authoritarianism they don't seem bothered.

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

Not until we've actually left.

You may not care about an £18-36 billion a year hole in the economy with £8-10 billion a year less tax for schools and hospitals as a result of a WTO deal on financial services for the sake of 'sovereignty', I would hope HMG do.

---------- Post added at 09:58 ---------- Previous post was at 09:51 ----------



None of it we can, or should. The country is signed up to the EU treaties until Brexit day.

I'm fairly certain the EU would be quite bothered if we started tearing up the treaties early. They would have no choice politically but to retaliate, probably by withdrawing our access to the Single Market early. I appreciate this is something you'd love to happen but those who live and trade in a bigger world really don't.

I have no idea whether you negotiate anything or are purely a manual worker, but as a general rule upsetting people before you negotiate with them isn't a great way to get a good result.

The attitude you seem to want to take towards the EU, basically ''eff it and 'eff them' terrifies UK businesses for good reasons. Between that and the government deciding it wants to start controlling the economy more, that'll be the bastion of free trade stuff kicking in, we quickly become an even less attractive location for investment.

We aren't entitled to investment from abroad. We keep sending out these signals about making it harder for them to do business here all the corporation tax cuts in the world won't help us, shell companies don't tend to employ many staff or pay that much tax.[COLOR="Silver"]

That's a very jobsworth attitude you have there .Mustn't whatever we do upset those pesky Eurocrats

I'm fairly certain the EU would be quite bothered if we started tearing up the treaties early.

Why ? what could possibly be so important to Brussels about deporting a few scummy criminals and not letting them back .We've always been allowed to do it the only reason we don't more often is Brussels makes it so bloody hard.

---------- Post added at 18:06 ---------- Previous post was at 18:01 ----------

Originally Posted by Damien

Hopefully companies resist. I am surprised how anti-foreigner the Tories have been this conference when the whole Brexit vote was portrayed as against the EU and not against foreigners but instead they've hinted at foreign doctors having to leave, not assured EU citizens they can stay and now want companies to provide lists of foreigners.

In retrospect it probably would have been better if Boris had become leader. May seems like she is drastically over-compensating for being a Remainer by putting the boot in as much as possible.

Why ,when we have left the EU those companies will not be able to employ foreign workers at lower wages and lower conditions ,instead they will have employ some of 2 million sitting on dole and pay a living wage

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by martyh

Why ,when we have left the EU those companies will not be able to employ foreign workers at lower wages and lower conditions ,instead they will have employ some of 2 million sitting on dole and pay a living wage

It's currently illegal to employ workers from different countries on different sets of conditions, no ifs or buts. That's called discrimination.

Paying a living wage is either up to the generosity of the employer or being compelled to by legislation.

It's really unclear as to what immigration we'll get post-Brexit. Some ministers have promised that construction, housing, agriculture, financial services and the NHS will all have unlimited immigration allowed. London has asked for unlimited immigration as well. Other ministers have said off the record that we'll be in the EEA so pretty much the same immigration as we have at the moment. Only time will tell.

[Anypermitedroute]

Correct and according to this article http://www.tradingeconomics.com/unit.../job-vacancies there is currently around 746,000 available so those two million can start applying as they are available today, no ifs no buts

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by martyh

That's a very jobsworth attitude you have there .Mustn't whatever we do upset those pesky Eurocrats

Why ? what could possibly be so important to Brussels about deporting a few scummy criminals and not letting them back .We've always been allowed to do it the only reason we don't more often is Brussels makes it so bloody hard.

Why ,when we have left the EU those companies will not be able to employ foreign workers at lower wages and lower conditions ,instead they will have employ some of 2 million sitting on dole and pay a living wage

My 'jobsworth' attitude is about not throwing two fingers up to the rest of the world by breaking treaties.

Your world may end at our borders and the closest you get to doing business outside the UK working with resident foreigners here or paying for a drink in a bar while on holiday, mine doesn't. My financial wellbeing, along with many others, is dependent on the UK and European economies alongside, to a lesser extent, the rest of the world.

The less antagonism during this process the better for all concerned and something as petty as that isn't worth the hassle. When we're done with Brexit we can go door to door with deportation squads to our hearts' content if we so choose, and going by the way the BlueKIP rhetoric is ratcheting up shouldn't be long before that's on the table.

As far as all those foreigners stealing jobs at lower wages and accepting poorer conditions goes doesn't look like it.



---------- Post added at 19:34 ---------- Previous post was at 19:27 ----------

Theresa May's attitude over the past days has already gone down like a pile of vomit with the EU. We've been repeatedly told that we'll get a great trade because Germany want to sell us their goods, meanwhile the EU has repeatedly informed that we aren't getting any special treatment without accepting the four freedoms.

Much as our three stooges and others like to blow sunshine up our hindmost we clearly very badly underestimate what the EU means to at least some other members. Just as we're happy to put immigration ahead of economy looks as though they're happy to put solidarity ahead of economy.

Not just the politicians either.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...rexit-trade-uk

The head of Germany’s largest business group has said German firms will not push for a free trade deal between the EU and Britain after Brexit, despite the number of cars and quantities of other goods they sell in the UK.

In remarks likely to be seen as increasing the chance of a “hard Brexit” excluding Britain from the EU single market, Markus Kerber, head of the BDI, dismissed claims that German companies would not tolerate trade tariffs after Britain leaves, and said Germany’s relations with the rest of the bloc were more important.

“I have read a lot of articles in the British press saying Germany would be a relatively soft negotiator because 7.5% of German exports go to Britain,” Kerber told BBC Radio 4’s today programme. “Well, 7.5% is a big number – but 92.5% goes somewhere else.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-brexit-stance

Angela Merkel has significantly stiffened her rhetoric on Brexit, telling an audience of German business leaders that any exception to the EU’s single market rules would represent “a systemic challenge for the entire European Union”.

The German chancellor’s remarks reflect an apparent toughening of positions in European capitals after Theresa May announced on Sunday that the UK would begin formal divorce talks by the end of March and indicated it was heading for a “hard Brexit”.

Merkel appealed to German firms to show a united front with EU governments in negotiations over Britain’s departure from the bloc, urging them to support the principle of “full access to the single market only in exchange for signing up to the four freedoms”.

If any one country was allowed an exception, she said, “you can imagine how all countries will put put conditions on free movement with other countries. And that would create an extremely difficult situation.”

The applause for Merkel’s comments put a further question mark over the argument of British pro-Brexit politicians that German businesses will inevitably pressure their government to preserve their trade links with the UK and resist tariffs.

[pip08456]

"Merkel appealed to German firms to show a united front with EU governments"

That's what's known as political posturing, only to be expected before negotiations of any kind. Same as May has done.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by pip08456

"Merkel appealed to German firms to show a united front with EU governments"

That's what's known as political posturing, only to be expected before negotiations of any kind. Same as May has done.

I don't think so! May is getting it in the neck from British industry at the moment!

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by Mr K

Its going to be years before the consequences of Brexit will be fully felt. I suspect a lot of people will regret being hoodwinked.

Believe it or not, I didn't vote for brexit expecting the economy to boom. I'm expecting to lose a considerable amount of money in the medium term (up to half a million). I voted out because I didn't want Great Britain to be controlled by an anti-democratic unelected cabal.
We will have to accept the consequences of our vote. The country will pull through but it will probably take 5+ years to get through the worst of it and once we have done that we will be prosperous once again and free of the EU's malevolent influence.
I voted out for purely patriotic reasons, which is ironic since I'm not even English but this country took my countrymen and parents in, gave them a place to live and jobs.
Are you English? If you are then it's ironic as it seems that I'm more loyal to this country than you are. If that is the case then shame on you.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

It's currently illegal to employ workers from different countries on different sets of conditions, no ifs or buts. That's called discrimination.

Paying a living wage is either up to the generosity of the employer or being compelled to by legislation.

It's really unclear as to what immigration we'll get post-Brexit. Some ministers have promised that construction, housing, agriculture, financial services and the NHS will all have unlimited immigration allowed. London has asked for unlimited immigration as well. Other ministers have said off the record that we'll be in the EEA so pretty much the same immigration as we have at the moment. Only time will tell.

Yeah ,well you'd better tell that to all the companies employing foreign workers because they are cheaper .Building companies do it ,farmers do it and your local kebab shop is probably doing it .

One thing that is clear post brexit is that there will be no unlimited immigration ,we need to be getting the lazy slobs from in front of Jeremy Kyle and out to work ,get them picking fruit or digging holes instead of bringing thousands of immigrants in to do the work

[Anypermitedroute]

Originally Posted by martyh

Yeah ,well you'd better tell that to all the companies employing foreign workers because they are cheaper .Building companies do it ,farmers do it and your local kebab shop is probably doing it .

One thing that is clear post brexit is that there will be no unlimited immigration ,we need to be getting the lazy slobs from in front of Jeremy Kyle and out to work ,get them picking fruit or digging holes instead of bringing thousands of immigrants in to do the work

Why wait till post brexit, they can do it today, pre brexit , no ifs, no buts, no excuse

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by pip08456

"Merkel appealed to German firms to show a united front with EU governments"

That's what's known as political posturing, only to be expected before negotiations of any kind. Same as May has done.

Difference of course being Merkel received their support, and it was volunteered before she'd even openly spoken to them, while May's and Rudd's comments...

have gone down like a cup of cold sick with business, wonks and free marketeers:

http://order-order.com/2016/10/05/bu...n-mays-speech/

In yet more evidence the government doesn't know arse from elbow and seems to think it can say whatever it wants in one setting and something completely different, and considerably more sane, in another:

https://www.ft.com/content/cc84f9ee-...7-e7ada1d123b1

Ministers are looking to negotiate a transitional trade deal with the EU — including possibly paying a single market access fee to Brussels — to avoid a “cliff-edge” for exporters and the City of London after Brexit in 2019.

A smooth transition over several years after Brexit is a key demand for the City and for countries such as Japan, which fear there could be disruption in trade while Britain and the EU hammer out a new free-trade agreement.

One senior banker said people in the sector were “shooting themselves in the head” on Tuesday after Bloomberg cited a senior figure in Theresa May’s administration saying her team had privately dismissed an interim deal with the EU.

But the claim was strongly denied by Mrs May’s allies. Several ministers told the Financial Times that a transitional trade deal was likely to be a key part of Brexit negotiations that begin next year.

“We are working to deliver the best possible exit from the European Union and it is completely wrong to suggest we have ruled in or out transitional arrangements,” a government spokesman said.

“Just this week we announced that European laws and regulations would be transferred to British law upon our exit from the European Union, in order to provide certainty for businesses that operate in the UK.”

One option being considered is that Britain might continue to pay into EU coffers as an entry fee to the single market during the interim period, pending agreement and ratification of a new trade deal.

Note, claiming direct quotes and no use of quotations to provide ambiguity.

---------- Post added at 21:33 ---------- Previous post was at 21:31 ----------

Originally Posted by Anypermitedroute

Why wait till post brexit, they can do it today, pre brexit , no ifs, no buts, no excuse

Indeed! All those Bulgarians working in kebab shops, all those Poles picking fruit all year round. Get the lot of them gone.

Originally Posted by Ramrod

Believe it or not, I didn't vote for brexit expecting the economy to boom. I'm expecting to lose a considerable amount of money in the medium term (up to half a million). I voted out because I didn't want Great Britain to be controlled by an anti-democratic unelected cabal.
We will have to accept the consequences of our vote. The country will pull through but it will probably take 5+ years to get through the worst of it and once we have done that we will be prosperous once again and free of the EU's malevolent influence.
I voted out for purely patriotic reasons, which is ironic since I'm not even English but this country took my countrymen and parents in, gave them a place to live and jobs.
Are you English? If you are then it's ironic as it seems that I'm more loyal to this country than you are. If that is the case then shame on you.

Shame on you ,don't you know that doing that has caused the rest of the world to hate us and not want to sell their tellies and cornflakes to us

---------- Post added at 22:18 ---------- Previous post was at 22:08 ----------

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

Difference of course being Merkel received their support, and it was volunteered before she'd even openly spoken to them, while May's and Rudd's comments...



http://order-order.com/2016/10/05/bu...n-mays-speech/

In yet more evidence the government doesn't know arse from elbow and seems to think it can say whatever it wants in one setting and something completely different, and considerably more sane, in another:

https://www.ft.com/content/cc84f9ee-...7-e7ada1d123b1



Note, claiming direct quotes and no use of quotations to provide ambiguity.

---------- Post added at 21:33 ---------- Previous post was at 21:31 ----------



Indeed! All those Bulgarians working in kebab shops, all those Poles picking fruit all year round. Get the lot of them gone.

Seeing as you know all about what's going on in the deepest recesses of government i'm surprised you aren't running brexit yourself ,after all reading your posts you got all the answers and know exactly what needs to done .

In 5 yrs time when the UK is independent and still chugging along quite nicely i'm going to remind you of all the negative,scaremongering you've been doing of late

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

In yet more evidence the government doesn't know arse from elbow and seems to think it can say whatever it wants in one setting and something completely different, and considerably more sane, in another:

https://www.ft.com/content/cc84f9ee-...7-e7ada1d123b1

That's a trap. The Japanese companies for example have talked previously about a transitional deal but not to 'await a trade agreement' but to slowly move operations to Europe. It's costly and disruptive for them to do so in the space of a year or two so they want a long goodbye.

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by Ramrod

Believe it or not, I didn't vote for brexit expecting the economy to boom. I'm expecting to lose a considerable amount of money in the medium term (up to half a million). I voted out because I didn't want Great Britain to be controlled by an anti-democratic unelected cabal.
We will have to accept the consequences of our vote. The country will pull through but it will probably take 5+ years to get through the worst of it and once we have done that we will be prosperous once again and free of the EU's malevolent influence.
I voted out for purely patriotic reasons, which is ironic since I'm not even English but this country took my countrymen and parents in, gave them a place to live and jobs.
Are you English? If you are then it's ironic as it seems that I'm more loyal to this country than you are. If that is the case then shame on you.

So everyone who voted to remain isn't loyal to the nation, is unpatriotic and should be ashamed. Gotcha.

Might want to tell the population of Gibraltar, who voted 95% to remain and just told the Spanish where to stick proposed shared sovereignty that would allow them to stay in the EU.

http://news.sky.com/story/gibraltar-...itain-10606648

Originally Posted by martyh

In 5 yrs time when the UK is independent and still chugging along quite nicely i'm going to remind you of all the negative,scaremongering you've been doing of late

Does it ever strike you that his belief Brexit is going to cause economic damage and that the UK might actually be less wealthy outside the EU is just as genuine as your belief it will be fine?

What possible reason would he, after the vote, have to continue to scaremonger and lie? It's because he (we) aren't and it's a honestly held belief. Just as it was before the vote.

There is no need for that kind of talk and certainly when he hasn't directed any animosity towards you. You wouldn't like it if he talked to you like that.

People need to calm down here. The last page of posts has gotten quite personal.