Ukraine on the verge of civil war!

[TheDaddy]

We should do more to help them, lend them some top notch equipment, have NATO conduct maneuvers in Ukraine, that type of stuff, pretty much everything short of getting involved with a war.

A big part of this mess was the west pushing ever Eastwood despite years of warnings from Russia perhaps instead of constantly pushing our ideology's and beliefs onto new frontiers we should pause and get our own house in order first.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

A big part of this mess was the west pushing ever Eastwood despite years of warnings from Russia perhaps instead of constantly pushing our ideology's and beliefs onto new frontiers we should pause and get our own house in order first.

And we're in the mess now, dithering and.pausing for thought isn't going to help the Ukrainians, we got them into it we're obliged to help them out of it.

Would our involvement really help or do even more damage I'm not sure right now I think the best way to calm the tension is to back off and halt further advances to the east. There will be those who parrot the line of "we must stand up to Putin" which is all well and good but the reality is there is bugger all we can effectively do to stand up to him. He has been modernising and rearming the Russian military at a time we've all been cutting both military budgets and manpower to the point where our ability to present a credible military block to whatever ambitions he might have is no block at all. Russia needs more time to be a nation we can build a more balanced relationship with, only time will remove the old soviet attitudes and diehards and we haven't given the time. All we have done in the west is progress further and further east right onto Russia's doorstep and now other nations and their populations will pay for it.

All this mad Vlad and evil Putin crap is a smokescreen for us to avoid taking any responsibility for a problem we did everything to create as the west has always done is it any wonder Russia has got more nervous and angry over the years.

Pushing further Eastward?

So if ex-Warsaw Pact countries want to embrace democracy, join non-Russian economic and/or military groupings, this is seen as being provocative?

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

A big part of this mess was the west pushing ever Eastwood despite years of warnings from Russia perhaps instead of constantly pushing our ideology's and beliefs onto new frontiers we should pause and get our own house in order first.

The EU is trying to build a United States of Europe, so what better way than to offer billions in aid to ex eastern block countries as a sweetener for joining there grand dream.

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

Russia needs more time to be a nation we can build a more balanced relationship with, only time will remove the old soviet attitudes and diehards and we haven't given the time. All we have done in the west is progress further and further east right onto Russia's doorstep and now other nations and their populations will pay for it.

All this mad Vlad and evil Putin crap is a smokescreen for us to avoid taking any responsibility for a problem we did everything to create as the west has always done is it any wonder Russia has got more nervous and angry over the years.

I think this "evil Putin crap" is because of his own actions. I know it's fashionable to engage in moral relativism and create a situation where we're as bad as each other but this is not the case.

Russia is 148 on the Press Freedom Index. Look at some of the countries above it. They don't have fair elections and Putin's political opponents often find themselves facing criminal charges. Reporters die in Russia for doing their jobs. Also whilst Russia has found a love for referendums on self-determination, albeit at gunpoint, in Crimea it is not a right they wish to afford to those in Chechnya. I'll remind you that the UK has offered many of it's people the right to break away with Scotland being only the most recent example.

Finally the fate of Eastern European countries should not be up to Russia to decide. This idea that the West is moving further and further to Russia's borders, as if it these sovereign nations were Russia's land, is cold war thinking and quite troubling. It should be up to the people to decide and the majority of them seem to want to join NATO. Maybe those closest to Russia remember what living under their rule was like the last time and have no desire to revisit that?

Remember when the Berlin Wall fell the people behind those walls headed West.

[Osem]

It should not be up to Putin to decide what these former Soviet states do but it'd be naïve to think that Russia won't act if it continues. Unfortunately that's the world we're living in and the reality we have to confront. If there were to be a sudden rush of former Soviet states to join the EU and Nato we may all argue that it's their right to do so but exercising that right is likely going to lead to some form of military conflict which will serve nobody well and could spiral out of control.

The big question is not whether these states have a right to determine their own futures but the extent to which the west will back their decisions with economic and even military support. We all know what the US did when the Russians tried to ship missiles to Cuba and how close were to WWIII. If we understand those actions maybe we should also understand that Putin doesn't want to be surrounded by western leaning countries who see their future in the EU and Nato. There are many wrongs in this world which we can't and won't sort out for all sorts of reasons, not the least of which is the cost/risk of so doing. Maybe the fate of certain former Soviet states falls into that category but we ought to bear in mind that raising false hopes amongst them could backfire very badly indeed.

How would the west react, I wonder, if all the former Soviet states decided they wanted to be part of Russia again and become hosts to their military forces. How would we react if the Russians started making overtures to Turkey and other nations the EU sees as possible future members. What would we do if the Turkish people voted to leave Nato as a result and join a military alliance with Russia. Would we do nothing and simply respect their right to do so? At what point does the threat to the west become so serious that military action is inevitable?

Originally Posted by Osem

How would the west react, I wonder, if all the former Soviet states decided they wanted to be part of Russia again and become hosts to their military forces. How would we react if the Russians started making overtures to Turkey and other nations the EU sees as possible future members. What would we do if the Turkish people voted to leave Nato as a result and join a military alliance with Russia. Would we do nothing and simply respect their right to do so? At what point does the threat to the west become so serious that military action is inevitable?

Well I would like to assume that we wouldn't do anything. I am not sure under what merit we could invade a Foreign country for enacting their democratic rights. Besides I don't think it will happen and, if it did, it wouldn't be so bad anyway. Russia would have to be a very different country for everyone to suddenly be so keen to rejoin the Soviet Union. As a rule people tend not to vote to disenfranchise themselves.

As far as I am concerned the concept of self-determination, the right to decide who governs you and democracy are not just a Western trait and a different way of looking at the world. It's a fundamental right that populations naturally desire or gravitate towards whether it's the fall of the Soviet Union and the subsequent Westward focus of it's former states or the Arab Spring. Few want to go in the other direction.

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by Damien

Remember when the Berlin Wall fell the people behind those walls headed West.

Indeed i was in Germany when it happened and watched the aftermath of it in Paderborn. The cost to the local services was massive and i think the Germans are only now fully recovered financially. I still say it was the best thing that happened however and started the ball rolling for the end of the cold war.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Damien

Well I would like to assume that we wouldn't do anything. I am not sure under what merit we could invade a Foreign country for enacting their democratic rights. Besides I don't think it will happen and, if it did, it wouldn't be so bad anyway. Russia would have to be a very different country for everyone to suddenly be so keen to rejoin the Soviet Union. As a rule people tend not to vote to disenfranchise themselves.

As far as I am concerned the concept of self-determination, the right to decide who governs you and democracy are not just a Western trait and a different way of looking at the world. It's a fundamental right that populations naturally desire or gravitate towards whether it's the fall of the Soviet Union and the subsequent Westward focus of it's former states or the Arab Spring. Few want to go in the other direction.

Well that's clearly depend on what we perceived the threat to our interests to be and how serious it was. Clearly the US thought missiles in Cuba posed a serious enough risk to their way of life to trump any concerns they had about anything else, including Cuba's right to choose.

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by Osem

Well that's clearly depend on what we perceived the threat to our interests to be and how serious it was. Clearly the US thought missiles in Cuba posed a serious enough risk to their way of life to trump any concerns they had about anything else, including Cuba's right to choose.

Watched the film the other night about the Cuban missile crisis and it raised parallels with what is happening now.

Bit of a difference between a country electing a democratic government that does not automatically align itself with Russia, and a country shipping nuclear missiles to somewhere 90 miles from your country's border......

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Bit of a difference between a country electing a democratic government that does not automatically align itself with Russia, and a country shipping nuclear missiles to somewhere 90 miles from your country's border......

Yes it's a very big difference (and hopefully nothing like it will ever happen again) but it illustrates the point that sometimes people exercising their free choice impacts others in a way which is deemed unacceptable and leads to conflict. Let's all hope things calm down in that part of Europe without too much conflict but let's not delude ourselves that things can't escalate well beyond the current boundaries.

Originally Posted by Osem

Yes it's a very big difference (and hopefully nothing like it will ever happen again) but it illustrates the point that sometimes people exercising their free choice impacts others in a way which is deemed unacceptable and leads to conflict. Let's all hope things calm down in that part of Europe without too much conflict but let's not delude ourselves that things can't escalate well beyond the current boundaries.

People didn't exercise their free choice. These weren't democratic countries....