Brexit discussion

[Chloé Palmas]

Who here is forgetting that leave won?

There is a difference between that and figuring the future arrangements and prospects for the country post EU membership.

You won, no question.

Now what?

We leave. Simples.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Mick

There are no stumbling blocks, no problems created. The leave vote won. That was democracy and there is still some of you who are pathetically forgetting that.

I would vote leave again and again and again. I don’t want our country to be in a corrupted establishment aka the EU.

That's a pretty generic post that's been posted before.
What do you actually think of the evidenced-based facts that Chloé has presented to us all today?

[Chloé Palmas]

Originally Posted by Mick

We leave. Simples.

And the part I asked about future arrangements? Or do we just ignore those?

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Mick

We leave. Simples.

Hmm.Not so simple according to Leaver David Davis's department and reported in the Brexit-supporting Sunday Times today.

Britain would be hit with shortages of medicine, fuel and food within a fortnight if the UK tries to leave the European Union without a deal, according to a Doomsday Brexit scenario drawn up by senior civil servants for David Davis.
Whitehall has begun contingency planning for the port of Dover to collapse “on day one” if Britain crashes out of the EU, leading to critical shortages of supplies.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/n...exit-02mld2jg2

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Chloé Palmas
Immigrants contribute more to society than they ever take.

I'd dispute that when it comes to Eastern Europeans, who lets be honest the perception of whom are the entire reason the leave vote was so large

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Hmm.Not so simple according to Leaver David Davis's department and reported in the Brexit-supporting Sunday Times today.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/n...exit-02mld2jg2

But leave means leave no matter the consequences, it's what we voted for, that scenario is exactly what people voted for

[Chloé Palmas]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

I'd dispute that when it comes to Eastern Europeans, who lets be honest the perception of whom are the entire reason the leave vote was so large

Wouldn't that be an irony if the UK stayed in the SM / CU and everything else was thrown away but Eastern European immigrants still had free movement rights in the UK etc?

I do differ with you slightly, I have even had dreadful experiences with some myself but on the whole I do see their contribution to the UK as a net gain. Some bad apples, sure. Though I would never cast such a wide net / dispersion over all of them.

Originally Posted by Chloé Palmas

And the part I asked about future arrangements? Or do we just ignore those?

You did not ask the future arrangements, you asked "What Now?" I answered that.

I have no desire to answer questions about trade agreements, I just want the country to leave the EU as was democratically chosen to do so and by leave, I mean do so in it's entirety, no single market, no customs union, as staying in any of these, this is not leaving the EU.

This desire to answer banal questions from Remainers about future trade agreements with the EU, as if it is some attempt to export some regret to vote leave, make no mistake - I have no regrets with my vote and never will.

[Chloé Palmas]

Hardly, I never asked you / or implied that you should regret anything about your vote.

I did say about future arrangements in reply number 2281:

Who here is forgetting that leave won?

There is a difference between that and figuring the future arrangements and prospects for the country post EU membership.

You won, no question.

Now what?

Perhaps it wasn't phrased as enough as a question - if you would prefer I could ask it as one?

Though if you see it as Banal I guess don't bother, no skin off my nose. (Wasn't just about trade btw, arrangements go much farther). But that is fine, and don't worry - I won't ask again.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Chloé Palmas

Wouldn't that be an irony if the UK stayed in the SM / CU and everything else was thrown away but Eastern European immigrants still had free movement rights in the UK etc?

I do differ with you slightly, I have even had dreadful experiences with some myself but on the whole I do see their contribution to the UK as a net gain. Some bad apples, sure. Though I would never cast such a wide net / dispersion over all of them.

I've only really had good experiences with them and I've worked with hundreds if not thousands of them over the years, I do dispute their contribution though especially in terms of tax over the last 5 years though as a lot of them don't earn enough to pay tax!

You could say that them doing the jobs we don't want is contributing though as it opens up a new tier of jobs for British workers but does that repair the damage they did to the British workforce 20 odd years ago when they were living 5 to a house and undercutting us left right and centre, back then I was shouting leave from the roof tops to anyone that'd listen but in my experience they're not like that anymore, which is why I voted remain, that and no one had a convincing enough reason that leaving would be worth all the effort, they don't want to work 300 hours a month anymore or share houses with half a dozen others.

The perception I mentioned is that they're the reason you can't get a doctors appointment, which when you think about it is nonsense, young, fit people don't need to visit doctors regularly, the reason you have to phone the doctor in the morning for your appointment now is because of the huge number of appointments that are missed and the other one is housing but again that's not entirely their fault as they're not in charge of housing policy or infrastructure, they're imo being blamed for things that should be laid at governments door oh and the other thing is how hard working they are compared to us, I've never met one yet whose work is consistently up to my standard or one who does the hours I do either

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by Mick

You did not ask the future arrangements, you asked "What Now?" I answered that.

I have no desire to answer questions about trade agreements, I just want the country to leave the EU as was democratically chosen to do so and by leave, I mean do so in it's entirety, no single market, no customs union, as staying in any of these, this is not leaving the EU.

This desire to answer banal questions from Remainers about future trade agreements with the EU, as if it is some attempt to export some regret to vote leave, make no mistake - I have no regrets with my vote and never will.

We will leave the EU on the 29th March 2019. No one is debating that. Would leaving the customs union and single market be leaving, or are there other organisations should leave?

Should we leave the EMA? Should we leave the EASA? Should we leave ERASMUS? Should we leave Horizon 2020? Should we leave Euratom? Should we leave Europol? Should we negate the Good Friday Agreement?

These are not banal questions. These affect medicines, education, science, nuclear materials, crime and peace in Northern Ireland.

Leaving the European Union is easy to say but it permeates so much of how this country runs that unravelling it all is more complex than saying we are leaving. Something needs to replace what we have now.

[Chloé Palmas]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

I've only really had good experiences with them and I've worked with hundreds if not thousands of them over the years, I do dispute their contribution though especially in terms of tax over the last 5 years though as a lot of them don't earn enough to pay tax!

Hmm I had not thought about it like that. I always assumed that if you were in full time employment (for 36+ hours a week) that you would always earn enough to pay even the most basic tax - due to minimum wage requirements of employers.

Though it depends, to live in the UK do you have to have employment, or just means to support yourself? If it is the latter and they can fend for themselves, I see no issue if they don't earn enough to pay tax. Let them live.

You could say that them doing the jobs we don't want is contributing though as it opens up a new tier of jobs for British workers but does that repair the damage they did to the British workforce 20 odd years ago when they were living 5 to a house and undercutting us left right and centre, back then I was shouting leave from the roof tops to anyone that'd listen but in my experience they're not like that anymore, which is why I voted remain, that and no one had a convincing enough reason that leaving would be worth all the effort, they don't want to work 300 hours a month anymore or share houses with half a dozen others.

I added the bold for emphasis. Basically this comes back to my previous point - if 6 or 8 of them can live in say a three bed house, and they all pay a 6th / 8th of the rent then who is to say that is bad? If the free market does dictate and they can be a better bet for employers back pockets then why not? Is it not the solution to the fact that there are jobs that Brits do not want?

Technology should be able to do a lot of that in time to come but that is not yet available...for the mean time, don't immigrants fill that void?

Like you said, you don't feel like doing it...so let someone who does I suppose.

The perception I mentioned is that they're the reason you can't get a doctors appointment, which when you think about it is nonsense, young, fit people don't need to visit doctors regularly, the reason you have to phone the doctor in the morning for your appointment now is because of the huge number of appointments that are missed and the other one is housing but again that's not entirely their fault as they're not in charge of housing policy or infrastructure, they're imo being blamed for things that should be laid at governments door oh and the other thing is how hard working they are compared to us, I've never met one yet whose work is consistently up to my standard or one who does the hours I do either

That was a long sentence so I guess I will respond to it in two parts.

In regards to the latter it really boils down to your philosophy of government and whether you want them to take care of your ever need (like housing / healthcare etc).

In regards to stuff like young / fit and healthy people etc, this is the point that I was trying to make to OLD BOY in regards to payment of retirement and social care but to go even farther...who is it who uses these services? You are absolutely spot on, it is not those of us that are young (I just turned 30 last year) and have a lot of care needed / ailments at our age. We not only do pay into the system (immigrant or otherwise) but we also don't require constant cradle to grave / womb to tomb babysitting. I am not saying that older folks do, either but it is thanks to all of us who do pay into it now (without using it as much) that the older generation do have a chance. I have a doctors appointment every 3 to 6 months - I don't use it more than 3 or 4 times a year. At most I need scripts for cream on my hands and some drops for my eyes as far as regular use of a surgery. That is it.

Those of us (wherever we come from) who are younger rarely even use the services that we pay so much for. Don't even get me started on social housing....immigrants from Eastern Europe all use private accommodation - they are not even eligible for government assisted housing.

We (younger people) not only pay for all this stuff, but we don't even use it.

But you will...

I, and my kids (now aged 26 and 30) no longer attend school, but I have no issues paying tax to let others attend, because, as a civilised society*, it’s about the long-term benefit for all, not just the short-term impact on me...

*US healthcare system vs U.K. healthcare system - no one in the U.K. has been bankrupted by medical bills as against the approx. 600k per year over the pond

[Chloé Palmas]

Yeah I suppose that is correct...so tell me, when it comes to our turn to use it, what will be left of it if there is no-one left to pay for it?

Originally Posted by Chloé Palmas

Yeah I suppose that is correct...so tell me, when it comes to our turn to use it, what will be left of it if there is no-one left to pay for it?

Well, unless everyone stops having kids, the same as now...