VM treat 0845 same as 0870

[Chrysalis]

who has the right? the phone company cannot charge you for a number you didnt dial.

[bonzoe]

If they are doing that, isn't that fraud?

[m419]

They could say the same about you, you are meant to be dialling the non-geographic numbers advertised. It is a premium service, if you decided it would be cheaper to get a chipped Virgin Media set top box to get cheaper or free Cable TV, then that is the same thing, your not paying for a service. Or it is like an adult travelling on a train with a Child ticket or someone travelling in first class with a 2nd class ticket. The logic behind 08 and 09 numbers today is that you call these lines to obtain a service and that extra fee is to pay for that service. Cable and Wireless Worldwide is the owner of the telephone numbers mentioned on the moneysaving expert forum, when you call a number terminating on a different phone company, then that phone company bills Virgin Media a termination fee of which then passes onto the customer and Cable and Wireless Worldwide recognised that the number they called was the Tesco customer service line. The geographical numbers are there for international callers as most countries are unable to connect to 08 numbers in the UK. So if you suddenly see 08 numbers appear on your bill, don't be surprised

[Chrysalis]

Thats irrelevant in terms of VM billing for a different number.

There is also nothing illegal about dialing alternative numbers, its not comparable to using a chipped cable box.

I got a funny reply of ofcom today tho, they playing dumb.

"3. With regards to how much Virgin Media charges for calls to 0845, unfortunately we have no regulatory control over this. In view of competition, a number of years ago, it was decided that it would be a commercial decision for each provider as to what they charge for their services."

Well doh, thats because you chose not to regulate them.

m419 the fee is extreme and disproportionate, I note tho ofcom didnt reject one of my ideas.

The idea they didnt reject was that call queues longer than 2 minutes on 0845 are reverse charged, forced to refund cost of call or call back offered. Effectively outlawing using call queues to generate revenue.

[m419]

It's funny you mention that, Ofcom a few years ago cracked down on companies using 0870 numbers as well as phone companies keeping people on hold on purpose to gain revenue share, this eventually led to the withdrawal of revenue share on 0845 and 0870 numbers. It then led to many companies migrating to 0843,0844,0871,0872 and in some cases 0901 numbers to continue getting revenue share. What Ofcom are saying is actually correct it is based on competition and they can't actually do anything about phone companies other than BT,Kingston Communications,Sure Cable and Wireless(Guernsey not Jersey or Isle of Man),Jersey Telecom and Manx Telecom. And it certainly has become something of competition, BT relaxed the charges to 0845 and 0870 numbers and then TalkTalk followed. Virgin Media then allowed 0870 numbers as part of inclusive calls allowances and then Sky followed Virgin Media. I didn't say it was illegal for you to use geographical numbers instead of the designated non-geographical numbers, the phone companies can charge you the 0845/0870 rate of which applies to your calling plan if the terminating phone company bills them in that way. There have been some 0207 1 numbers that have been charged 0871 rate, however it was advertised that it would be 10p per minute. I do agree with your idea that companies should call you back instead of keeping you on hold, that is something that Vodafone and Npower have started doing, it is not allowed to keep people on hold with numbers like 0906,0907,0908 and 0909 and if lines are busy, they must either ring out until a line becomes available and must not be connected until then or have some sort of call me back facility. The same should apply to 070,0843,0844,0871 and 0872 numbers. 0845 and 0870 numbers are down to you, you choose the phone company that charges you the least amount of money or you ask retentions to do something about it.

[Chrysalis]

I have to say I rarely see 0870 and 0843,0844,0871,0872 in use.

0845 is easily the majority use.

I am curious of any documentation that has stated 0845 revenue sharing has stopped because I have seen documentation from government departments stating they use 0845 to generate revenue to cover costs as them justifying its use. If they get no revenue of it then why use it over 0345 or geographical numbers?

m419 you are wrong on the termination charges as well, even ofcom confirmed it to me, and the cases on moneysavingsexpert VM eventually backed down. A telco provider can only charge for the number dialed in accordance to their contract with the user, their calling plan. Even if it means they make a loss on the call. So if down the line its redirected to 0845 thats the telco's problem not the customer.

To be clear in the cases of tesco the geographical numbers were not advertised as 0845 rate.

Ofcom didnt say they agreed with me on the callbacks but I do find it interesting they chose not to argue that point with me. Instead saying regarding anything else on my email they didnt specifically comment on is part of their current investigation.

[m419]

HMRC have replaced there 08453 numbers with new 03 numbers. DWP 0800 numbers are now free to call from mobiles and i've been told they are going to do the same as HMRC eventually with there 0845 numbers which they currently use for Jobcentre plus services including Social fund enquiries. Sky,O2,Citizens Advice,Transport for London,littlewoods,Arriva,Barclaycard are just some of the companies using 0843/0844 numbers for the main point of contact. Virgin Holidays,National Express,Diamond insurance,payday UK,JD Williams catalogue and home shopping are some that use 0871 numbers. I will tell you something, T-Mobile are getting cheeky with the pay as you go prices for calling 0800 numbers, they are meant to be free, you'd expect them to be cheaper than calling another mobile network at least but they like to charge up to a whopping 40p per minute for a not so free freephone number.

[Gadgie]

When we were with Sky for all 3 services, we used to get charged for 0845 numbers that we never even called?

It started off with small amounts like 45p, but later they were charging us £3.50 extra on our bill?

The annoying thing is, we use that" say no 0845 numbers" web site, so we never dialed any 0845 ones, but they insisted we did

(so we are hoping this will stop now that are back with V/M)

[Chrysalis]

the EU ruled last year support type services have to be charged at a basic rate, apparently the UK signed up to it so this may well be the precursor to what ofcom is doing now.