[Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
29-07-2017, 17:07
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#166
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Rise above the players
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Re: Petrol & diesel vehicles ban.
Perhaps the answer to refuelling problem relating to electric cars is to change the battery that's running out for a charged one at the garage.
The garage would then re-charge the depleted battery and then it's ready for the next customer.
I can't see how else it is practical to manage the situation if you drive 60 odd miles a day as I used to do in my last job.
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29-07-2017, 17:19
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#167
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vox populi vox dei
Join Date: Mar 2007
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Re: Petrol & diesel vehicles ban.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY
Perhaps the answer to refuelling problem relating to electric cars is to change the battery that's running out for a charged one at the garage.
The garage would then re-charge the depleted battery and then it's ready for the next customer.
I can't see how else it is practical to manage the situation if you drive 60 odd miles a day as I used to do in my last job.
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a battery for a tesla weighs in at 648 lbs and i think their built into the floor that's about the weight of a chevy v8 engine
Battery Specs
Type Laminated lithium-ion battery
Voltage 403.2V [1]
Nominal voltage 360V [2]
Total capacity 24 kWh [2] (16 kWh available, 67% DoD [3], 21 kWh declared [4])
Power output Over 90 kW
Energy density 140 Wh/kg [5]
Power density 2.5 kW/kg [5]
Dimensions 61.8 x 46.8 x 10.4 in. (1570.5 x 1188 x 264.9 mm) [1]
Weight 648 lbs [6]
Number of modules 48, each with four cells (total 192 cells) [7][2]
Battery pack contents:
Positive electrodes: lithium manganate
Negative electrodes: carbon
Cells
Modules
Assembly parts
Charging times:
Quick charger DC50kW (0 to 80%): approx. 30 min (Level 3 charging)
Home-use AC240V charging dock (0-100%): 8 hrs (Level 2 charging) [8]
Regular 110/120V 15-amp outlet: 22 hours (Level 1 charging) [9]
Battery layout Under seat & floor
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Last edited by papa smurf; 29-07-2017 at 17:35.
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29-07-2017, 17:52
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#168
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Rise above the players
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Re: Petrol & diesel vehicles ban.
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf
a battery for a tesla weighs in at 648 lbs and i think their built into the floor that's about the weight of a chevy v8 engine
Battery Specs
Type Laminated lithium-ion battery
Voltage 403.2V [1]
Nominal voltage 360V [2]
Total capacity 24 kWh [2] (16 kWh available, 67% DoD [3], 21 kWh declared [4])
Power output Over 90 kW
Energy density 140 Wh/kg [5]
Power density 2.5 kW/kg [5]
Dimensions 61.8 x 46.8 x 10.4 in. (1570.5 x 1188 x 264.9 mm) [1]
Weight 648 lbs [6]
Number of modules 48, each with four cells (total 192 cells) [7][2]
Battery pack contents:
Positive electrodes: lithium manganate
Negative electrodes: carbon
Cells
Modules
Assembly parts
Charging times:
Quick charger DC50kW (0 to 80%): approx. 30 min (Level 3 charging)
Home-use AC240V charging dock (0-100%): 8 hrs (Level 2 charging) [8]
Regular 110/120V 15-amp outlet: 22 hours (Level 1 charging) [9]
Battery layout Under seat & floor
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I am sure that battery sizes can be reduced by 2040, and if they are still too heavy, someone would have to invent a contraption for garages to use when replacing batteries.
If there are no straight forward ways to replace batteries, someone is going to have to come up with an alternative solution that is practical. The only one I have at the moment is hydrogen fuelled cars. Although expensive at present, the price will come down with mass production and competition.
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29-07-2017, 17:56
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#169
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-.- ..- .-. ... -.-
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,843
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Re: Petrol & diesel vehicles ban.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy
Problem with your plan is currently it takes about a five minutes to fill up a car, pay and go, even if we get the charging time down to an hour how many cars are these garages going to process compared to now and of course the drivers will have to stay with the cars and wait and wait and wait, it'll be a complete free for all to get to the charging station and wait and wait. Also there is a pretty horrific environmental cost to making and disposing of these batteries, it'd be interesting to compare the two and see the figures. I do like electorocuting persistent offenders though, that's a sensible policy although just to make the punishment as inhumane as possible they should be electrocuted with their own cars enormous battery.
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A huge percentage will be topping up their fuel at home (which they can't do at the moment); or perhaps at a hotel or whatever. There's a pretty horrific environmental cost to extracting oil, refining, transporting and, of course, using.
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29-07-2017, 17:58
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#170
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vox populi vox dei
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Re: Petrol & diesel vehicles ban.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY
I am sure that battery sizes can be reduced by 2040, and if they are still too heavy, someone would have to invent a contraption for garages to use when replacing batteries.
If there are no straight forward ways to replace batteries, someone is going to have to come up with an alternative solution that is practical. The only one I have at the moment is hydrogen fuelled cars. Although expensive at present, the price will come down with mass production and competition.
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a fork lift truck ? battery powered of course
---------- Post added at 17:58 ---------- Previous post was at 17:57 ----------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kursk
A huge percentage will be topping up their fuel at home (which they can't do at the moment); or perhaps at a hotel or whatever. There's a pretty horrific environmental cost to extracting oil, refining, transporting and, of course, using.
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jerry can
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29-07-2017, 18:07
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#171
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cf.mega pornstar
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 18,808
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Re: Petrol & diesel vehicles ban.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kursk
A huge percentage will be topping up their fuel at home (which they can't do at the moment); or perhaps at a hotel or whatever. There's a pretty horrific environmental cost to extracting oil, refining, transporting and, of course, using.
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The challenges aren't insurmountable and we'll be there long before 2040 imo. Another plus again imo is to tell those rather unpleasant sand dwelling types with a penchant for decapitation and suppressing women to shove it
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29-07-2017, 18:13
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#172
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vox populi vox dei
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Re: Petrol & diesel vehicles ban.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kursk
A huge percentage will be topping up their fuel at home (which they can't do at the moment); or perhaps at a hotel or whatever. There's a pretty horrific environmental cost to extracting oil, refining, transporting and, of course, using.
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There's a pretty horrific environmental cost to extracting lithium , refining, transporting and, of course, using.
Elemental lithium is flammable and very reactive. In nature, lithium occurs in compounded forms such as lithium carbonate requiring chemical processing to be made usable.
Lithium is typically found in salt flats in areas where water is scarce. The mining process of lithium uses large amounts of water. Therefore, on top of water contamination as a result of its use, depletion or transportation costs are issues to be dealt with. Depletion results in less available water for local populations, flora and fauna.
Toxic chemicals are used for leaching purposes, chemicals requiring waste treatment. There are widespread concerns of improper handling and spills, like in other mining operations around the world.
The recovery rate of lithium ion batteries, even in first world countries, is in the single digit percent range. Most batteries end up in landfill.
In a 2013 report, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) points out that nickel and cobalt, both also used in the production of lithium ion batteries, represent significant additional environmental risks.
A 2012 study titled “Science for Environment Policy” published by the European Union compares lithium ion batteries to other types of batteries available (lead-acid, nickel-cadmium, nickel-metal-hydride and sodium sulphur). It concludes that lithium ion batteries have the largest impact on metal depletion, suggesting that recycling is complicated. Lithium ion batteries are also, together with nickel-metal-hydride batteries, the most energy consuming technologies using the equivalent of 1.6kg of oil per kg of battery produced. They also ranked the worst in greenhouse gas emissions with up to 12.5kg of CO2 equivalent emitted per kg of battery. The authors do point out that “…for a full understanding of life cycle impacts, further aspects of battery use need to be considered, such as length of usage, performance at different temperatures, and ability to discharge quickly.”
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Last edited by papa smurf; 29-07-2017 at 18:46.
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29-07-2017, 18:19
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#173
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Re: Petrol & diesel vehicles ban.
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf
a fork lift truck ? battery powered of course
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Most depots I've visited dropped battery power for gas power for all their forklifts years ago.
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29-07-2017, 19:06
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#174
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Rise above the players
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Re: Petrol & diesel vehicles ban.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taf
Most depots I've visited dropped battery power for gas power for all their forklifts years ago.
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That certainly makes more sense to me.
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29-07-2017, 19:10
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#175
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cf.mega poster
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 6,798
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Re: Petrol & diesel vehicles ban.
There is no way this will change in my lifetime.
If you think, my wife has a battered old Diesel car. I have a petrol car - and no we are not rich either.
My daughter has a diesel, my son has a petrol car.
If we got rid of all the cars - and Lorries due to the crazy government going over to electric vehicles.
Can you see how many people would be unemployed. Millions.
To get electric vehicles - how is the government going to get all those taxs.
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29-07-2017, 19:21
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#176
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Mum 15/08/46 - 30/09/20
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Re: Petrol & diesel vehicles ban.
There are zero charging stations in my town, the nearest one is (15 miles) 30 minute drive away and if you park in the service station for 1 minute over 2 hours you get a £100 fine.
So much for telling drivers if your tired take a break.
Plus it can take 25 mins to get in the dam place and over 30 mins to get out.
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29-07-2017, 23:00
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#177
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Guest
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Re: Petrol & diesel vehicles ban.
Until there is a breakthrough in battery technology the electric car will stay a minority thing and all this "by 2040" stuff reminds me of old tech shows that were convinced we would all be flying around in our cars by the millennium. Electric is the future but not without a breakthrough in the production of it and the practical storage of it the pace will continue to be slow. Nuclear can barely cover the gap in our current energy plans let alone adding tens of millions of car user's putting their cars on charge and as overnight would be the preference you can bet the power company's will bin the traditional low tariff's during the night.
Despite being supposed first world countries we really haven't done very well adapting to advancing technology and I don't see that changing anytime soon.
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30-07-2017, 00:11
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#178
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-.- ..- .-. ... -.-
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,843
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Re: Petrol & diesel vehicles ban.
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf
There's a pretty horrific environmental cost to extracting lithium , refining, transporting and, of course, using.
Elemental lithium is flammable and very reactive. In nature, lithium occurs in compounded forms such as lithium carbonate requiring chemical processing to be made usable.
Lithium is typically found in salt flats in areas where water is scarce. The mining process of lithium uses large amounts of water. Therefore, on top of water contamination as a result of its use, depletion or transportation costs are issues to be dealt with. Depletion results in less available water for local populations, flora and fauna.
Toxic chemicals are used for leaching purposes, chemicals requiring waste treatment. There are widespread concerns of improper handling and spills, like in other mining operations around the world.
The recovery rate of lithium ion batteries, even in first world countries, is in the single digit percent range. Most batteries end up in landfill.
In a 2013 report, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) points out that nickel and cobalt, both also used in the production of lithium ion batteries, represent significant additional environmental risks.
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You posted without a link sadly because sadly the many years old article you cut and sadly pasted went on to say "Technology will of course improve, lithium supplies will be sufficient for the foreseeable future, and recycling rates will climb".
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30-07-2017, 07:15
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#179
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Still alive and fighting
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Re: Petrol & diesel vehicles ban.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RizzyKing
Until there is a breakthrough in battery technology the electric car will stay a minority thing and all this "by 2040" stuff reminds me of old tech shows that were convinced we would all be flying around in our cars by the millennium. Electric is the future but not without a breakthrough in the production of it and the practical storage of it the pace will continue to be slow. Nuclear can barely cover the gap in our current energy plans let alone adding tens of millions of car user's putting their cars on charge and as overnight would be the preference you can bet the power company's will bin the traditional low tariff's during the night.
Despite being supposed first world countries we really haven't done very well adapting to advancing technology and I don't see that changing anytime soon.
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Pigs might fly springs to mind.
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30-07-2017, 08:31
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#180
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vox populi vox dei
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Re: Petrol & diesel vehicles ban.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kursk
You posted without a link sadly because sadly the many years old article you cut and sadly pasted went on to say "Technology will of course improve, lithium supplies will be sufficient for the foreseeable future, and recycling rates will climb".
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but sadly they have not
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To be or not to be, woke is the question Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer. The slings and arrows of outrageous wokedome, Or to take arms against a sea of wokies. And by opposing end them.
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