Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

Classic examples.

We had martyh post HB fraud figures as a way to justify attacking the disabled when they seperate parts of welfare.
We have newspapers loving to find people with 4+ kids who will be on high amounts of child benefits and then the government sees that as an excuse to attack the disabled.
We have the bbc who seemed to just think everyone is fiddling sickness benefits and going out looking for them.

.

Now your just making things up no where have i attacked the disabled or tried to justify the attacking of disabled .

[Gary L]

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

Its going to get worse before it gets better, it will bottom out when people are dieing in the streets and en masse and the government starts getting sued successfully at which point they will have realised its gone too far.

I predicted the same.

[Taf]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Re Tax Credits - the Government must have been listening to you....

BBC

I know of quite a few families who are going to suffer due to this change, mainly because they CANNOT get work much above 16 hours per week as their employers don't want full-time workers.

But then again I know of a group who make damned sure they don't work more than 16 hours in order to get maximum benefits for minimal work.

[Chrysalis]

Originally Posted by martyh

Now your just making things up no where have i attacked the disabled or tried to justify the attacking of disabled .

you have done in this very thread.

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

you have done in this very thread.

Show me

[mertle]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Re Tax Credits - the Government must have been listening to you....

BBC

sadly just shows the backward nature of the government make families suffer. When I think it should be put on the businesses by increasing minimum wage.

Tax credit is big issue with more people becoming in poverty trap but instead moving the goalpost and only supporting families when businesses clearly cant afford the new higher minimum wage small businesses/businesses struggling financially we have system which encourages businesses to pay the bare minimum regardless profits.

Anyway this off topic should be on seperate thread discussion. Maggy will be after us.

Gary L and Chrysalis would hope the community would stand tall against this government before it comes to that. Sadly lost faith in british people to do that with what going on. I am sure some think disabled should lie in bed 24 hours staring at ceiling dribbling in the mouth.

I agreed its all down to the pay squeeze when actually we need to be doing the oposite. Get money in the right pockets so they can spend more goods bought means companies shifting goods need to make more.

Which inturn create wealth to increase jobs maybe this masterplan needs to be given as education to businesses and governments.

[Taf]

Originally Posted by Taf

But then again I know of a group who make damned sure they don't work more than 16 hours in order to get maximum benefits for minimal work.

The news has hit some Czech Romas I know and they have been phoning me trying to find out what it will mean to them.

I told the first I had no idea what he was on about, the second gave me the BBC link, the third was almost crying.... he said he gets "about" £16,000 pa from WFTC and "about" £3000 Child Benefit (5 children) and a drop would mean he could not feed his family!!

What are they spending their money on?

I told the third one that the Benefits cap is the one that will hit him hardest, as Housing Benefit (his rent is £950 pm) and Community Charge Benefit are included in it (so far). I think he did actually start crying when I said the cap would be set at £26,000.

He was not well-chuffed to hear about that!

[Angua]

Originally Posted by Taf

The news has hit some Czech Romas I know and they have been phoning me trying to find out what it will mean to them.

I told the first I had no idea what he was on about, the second gave me the BBC link, the third was almost crying.... he said he gets "about" £16,000 pa from WFTC and "about" £3000 Child Benefit (5 children) and a drop would mean he could not feed his family!!

What are they spending their money on?

I told the third one that the Benefits cap is the one that will hit him hardest, as Housing Benefit (his rent is £950 pm) and Community Charge Benefit are included in it (so far). I think he did actually start crying when I said the cap would be set at £26,000.

He was not well-chuffed to hear about that!

Advise them to check the moneysavingexpert forums. They have people who can feed a family of 4 on £200 pcm.

£16k just in WFTC thats more then i get a year including housing benefit and council tax benefit. You have highlighted exactly why so many taxpayers are unhappy and how the system rewards having kids. Although funnily enough i am a taxpayer too got a rebate today as apparently i paid too much income tax.

[Chrysalis]

WFTC is the biggest problem on welfare I am in full agreement.

This unfortenatly has the blame misplaced at IB and DLA claimants. I wonder how many of those in the pub mocking the guy on crutches were in receipt of WFTC.

WFTC is paid to people who work and dont work and is both a generous child benefit and a subsidy to employers who wont pay a working wage.

What probably should happen to solve 3 issues is to scrap WFTC completely and signficantly increase the min wage.

it would do 3 things.

1 - increase the gap between unemployment employment in income levels.
2 - decrease poverty for those working including the childless who are forgotten about.
3 - decrease the welfare bill.

of course there would be a very unhappy part of society having to pay higher wages and less to owners/shareholders, businesses.

Even someone getting the absolute most on IB with DLA which would be this doesnt exceed 26k income and they are below 20k as well, they dont even come close to 26k.

Long term IB
max age additions
high rate DLA

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

WFTC is the biggest problem on welfare I am in full agreement.

This unfortenatly has the blame misplaced at IB and DLA claimants. I wonder how many of those in the pub mocking the guy on crutches were in receipt of WFTC.

WFTC is paid to people who work and dont work and is both a generous child benefit and a subsidy to employers who wont pay a working wage.

What probably should happen to solve 3 issues is to scrap WFTC completely and signficantly increase the min wage.

it would do 3 things.

1 - increase the gap between unemployment employment in income levels.
2 - decrease poverty for those working including the childless who are forgotten about.
3 - decrease the welfare bill.

of course there would be a very unhappy part of society having to pay higher wages and less to owners/shareholders, businesses.

Even someone getting the absolute most on IB with DLA which would be this doesnt exceed 26k income and they are below 20k as well, they dont even come close to 26k.

Long term IB
max age additions
high rate DLA

can i point out that WFTC does not exist anymore and hasn't existed since 2003 .I think you need to look at the history of such benefits from when they where introduced by Thatcher up to the present day including what they replaced before continuing with your ramblings

and i'm still waiting for you to show me where i "attacked" disabled people

[Chrysalis]

Child tax credits I was reffering to, funny tho you waited until I posted as if you now have an issue with me.

Now when I read someone say they dont have a problem with disabled people getting their help cut I consider that an attack on disabled people. Especially when they start calling them names.

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

Child tax credits I was reffering to, funny tho you waited until I posted as if you now have an issue with me.

.

like i said you need to source a history of tax credits all the way back to when every working person used to get married mans allowance/single mans allowance ,and a child allowance built into their tax code .That was all abolished and family credits introduced which where in turn replaced by WFTC which was a temporary measure untill WTC and CTC where introduced .So you see you can't simply abolish WTC and CTC because you would have to replace them with another tax allowance for working people .There is nothing wrong with the current system just the way it is implemented

Now when I read someone say they dont have a problem with disabled people getting their help cut I consider that an attack on disabled people. Especially when they start calling them names

You really need to go back and read what i posted on several occasions before throwing such accusations around ,I'll leave you to do that before you apologise

Well whatever name it goes by these days there is more fraud and overpayment with the tax credits system then there is with welfare but i don't see the media getting itself in the huff they do over incap nor do i see many mentions of all that tax money that isn't being paid either. Face it were the easy target unlike how the media portrays us we don't have masses of taxpayer cash lying around so that we can mount legal challenges. Fact is most of us on benefit manage to live on not that much (but enough to manage if your careful don't think i am suggesting more for us )and given the choice would happily work and be able to pay our own way with our own earnt cash rather then having to take benefit.

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

Well whatever name it goes by these days there is more fraud and overpayment with the tax credits system then there is with welfare but i don't see the media getting itself in the huff they do over incap nor do i see many mentions of all that tax money that isn't being paid either. Face it were the easy target unlike how the media portrays us we don't have masses of taxpayer cash lying around so that we can mount legal challenges. Fact is most of us on benefit manage to live on not that much (but enough to manage if your careful don't think i am suggesting more for us )and given the choice would happily work and be able to pay our own way with our own earnt cash rather then having to take benefit.

That may be the case Rizzy ,i am fully aware the Tax Credit system is flawed but replacing that with a new system (and that will most likely happen in time) will take much longer than getting people who are on the wrong disability benefit or shouldn't be on it in the first place.Yes you are correct in that it is easier to sort out the fraudulant /incorrect claims so the government should go there first simply because we need to save money now not in 5 yrs time