Tories plan to lower Benefits cap

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Mr Angry

Democracy in action.

Well not really is it.

The deomcratic process was fulfilled when the will of the people elected the Conservative government at the time.

Now those rioting, were just criminals of varying degrees.

Peaceful process, now that is a democratic right.

Smashing windows and throwing petrol bombs is just criminality.

[Mr Angry]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Well not really is it. The deomcratic process was fulfilled when the will of the people elected the Conservative government at the time. Now those rioting, were just criminals of varying degrees. Peaceful process, now that is a democratic right. Smashing windows and throwing petrol bombs is just criminality.

I think you'll find the fact that you had free will to make a choice was democracy in action, not the outworkings of your perhaps having made a different choice.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Mr Angry

I think you'll find the fact that you had free will to make a choice was democracy in action, not the outworkings of your perhaps having made a different choice.

Nope, I do not need democracy to have free will.

If I lived in a communist society or a dictatorship I still have free will.

I may not have freedoms, but that it something else.

Free will, your ability to have control over your own actions, is not given to me by the system of government. It is an inherent human ability/gift.

I think you're confusing freedom with free will, two totally different things.

[Mr Angry]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Nope, I do not need democracy to have free will. If I lived in a communist society or a dictatorship I still have free will. I may not have freedoms, but that it something else. Free will, your ability to have control over your own actions, is not given to me by the system of government. It is an inherent human ability/gift. I think you're confusing freedom with free will, two totally different things.

I haven't suggested that you need democracy to have free will, nor have I suggested that they are mutully exclusive.

If I wanted to talk about freedom as a construct and run the risk of confusing the two in the eyes of others I would - but as things stand I'm not.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Mr Angry

I haven't suggested that you need democracy to have free will, nor have I suggested that they are mutully exclusive.

If I wanted to talk about freedom as a construct and run the risk of confusing the two in the eyes of others I would - but as things stand I'm not.

well then explain what you meant by

I think you'll find the fact that you had free will to make a choice was democracy in action

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

If increasing the minimum wage were this fast track to bankruptcy and companies really didn't want to pay it they'd liquidate rather than continue to operate.

I'm pretty sure that I didn't say that increasing the minimum wage was as fast track to bancruptcy. All I said was that if the minimum wage goes up beyond a certain amount, businesses will tend to stop hiring staff.
......and no-one will liquidate a profitable going concern, they will simply look at ways of minimizing expenses.

[Ignitionnet]

Given businesses aren't really hiring anyway even with wages falling in both real and in some cases nominal terms, hence the massive increase in self-employment, I don't think many people would notice.

The major effects of a minimum wage increase would probably be a small dose of inflation and a reduction in the in-work welfare bill.

NB the italics are due to the fact that much of the 'self-employment' is bovine excreta and it's the latest scam to fudge the unemployment statistics after disability has become unfeasible, with the added bonus that tax credits are available.

[Mr Angry]

Originally Posted by Pierre

well then explain what you meant by "I think you'll find the fact that you had free will to make a choice was democracy in action"

Certainly. What I meant was what I wrote ie. "I think you'll find the fact that you had free will to make a choice was democracy in action". You made a democratic decision not to be anti-democratic by choosing to riot but to get a job instead.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Well not really is it.

The deomcratic process was fulfilled when the will of the people elected the Conservative government at the time.

Now those rioting, were just criminals of varying degrees.

Peaceful process, now that is a democratic right.

Smashing windows and throwing petrol bombs is just criminality.

Actually the rioters were acting in democracies truest form as the Greeks had intended, providing they weren't just out to line their own pockets of course

---------- Post added at 17:54 ---------- Previous post was at 17:54 ----------

Originally Posted by Taf

I understand that school leavers not in work, training or education will be obliged to do "community work" for their dole (which will have some new name, thus they will not be classed as unemployed I bet).

I reckon this will slowly creep from the 21 years of age limit to include all ages not in work, training or education. And I am sure that many presently considered disabled will be forced into this group also.

It might produce a "strong work ethic", it might even result in some finding paid employment, but it will also create a huge army of "free" labour, especially for "cash-strapped" councils (who are already making many unemployed as they realise this "free" labour force is coming).

And the benefits cap will sink lower and lower......

See it coming sadly

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Mr Angry

Certainly. What I meant was what I wrote ie. "I think you'll find the fact that you had free will to make a choice was democracy in action". You made a democratic decision not to be anti-democratic by choosing to riot but to get a job instead.

Gobbledygook

I made a decision by my own free will, democracy had nothing to do with it.

---------- Post added at 18:20 ---------- Previous post was at 18:19 ----------

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

Actually the rioters were acting in democracies truest form as the Greeks had intended

Explain.

[Mr Angry]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Gobbledygook I made a decision by my own free will, democracy had nothing to do with it.

It had everything to do with it.

According to your own recollection of your unfortunate circumstances at that time in the 80's you decided to look for a job rather than engage in rioting - which you yourself descibed as being conducted by "criminals of varying degrees". Ergo you made a decision of your own free will to maintain the democratic legal law abiding status quo rather than engage in rioting against same.

How is that not a democratically based decision / a decision based on your understanding of democracy?

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Explain.

Democracy in Greece was violent, they frequently burnt down the houses of corrupt or lying politicians and once voted in favour of having an entire town population executed, I think a bit of mob rule rioting is something they'd have approved of wholeheartedly

Along with slavery, disenfranchisement of those who were not male citizens, with only around 25,000 out of 300,000 being able to vote - perhaps not the best example of a role-model....

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Mr Angry

It had everything to do with it.

According to your own recollection of your unfortunate circumstances at that time in the 80's you decided to look for a job rather than engage in rioting - which you yourself descibed as being conducted by "criminals of varying degrees". Ergo you made a decision of your own free will to maintain the democratic legal law abiding status quo rather than engage in rioting against same.

How is that not a democratically based decision / a decision based on your understanding of democracy?

Tenuous.

More like a decision based on my moral compass of what is right and what is wrong than anything to do with democracy.

---------- Post added at 20:08 ---------- Previous post was at 20:04 ----------

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

Democracy in Greece was violent, they frequently burnt down the houses of corrupt or lying politicians and once voted in favour of having an entire town population executed, I think a bit of mob rule rioting is something they'd have approved of wholeheartedly

That's not democracy. As you point out, it's mob violence.

Democracy in a civilised society is, allowing every individual to peacefully air their views, whilst adhering to the will of the majority.

[Kursk]

You've been hitting the nail on the head Pierre, as the hammer you should expect distraction tactics from the nail .

Apologies to Eric Cantona.