Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'

Originally Posted by Mr Angry

So, if you didn't think that your employer "appropriately valued" you you would simply "go elsewhere" by withdrawing your goodwill and leaving their employ rather than try to negotiate your worth?

Ironically that makes you considerably more militant than those union members whose you are trying to berate in this thread.

Clearly your stated position somewhat undermines your argument vis a vis the supposed selfish actions / industrial action / negotiations by tube drivers in relation to their job security / pay / perceived worth.

Marty, Stuart & Maggy - you appear to be venting angst on the basis that you feel somehow hard done by because according to yourselves there are no tube drivers who have degrees / comparable degrees or that degrees obtained by others are undervalued by comparison. Where have you got this information from?

Take a leaf from Iggy's book and act on a self centred basis by withdrawing your labour with no consideration for anyone else or, alternatively, join a union and negotiate - and if needs be strike - to get what you think you're worth.

No I'm more peeved by the idea sold to me and my children that a good job with a good wage was possible only with decent qualifications.But when people with little or no formal education earn fantastic wages I get really peeved especially for my daughter who found her first degree could get her no job and so has had to retrain and get a further degree to find that even now there will be no decent remuneration even though she does now have a job.

I guess though that having a job is possibly the best outcome...Pity the 7 years of study haven't brought about a vast financial difference in her income. So yes I annoyed when people who have a decent income in comparison to the rest of society think nothing of inconveniencing the public as frequently as the tube drivers do.

Oh and I very much doubt that there are many degree holders among the tube drivers because that would entail some time devoted to studying at least 3 years minimum.Of course there would be opportunities through OU and they are earning the necessary dosh to pay for the fees.

Originally Posted by Mr Angry

So, if you didn't think that your employer "appropriately valued" you you would simply "go elsewhere" by withdrawing your goodwill and leaving their employ rather than try to negotiate your worth?

Ironically that makes you considerably more militant than those union members whose you are trying to berate in this thread.

Clearly your stated position somewhat undermines your argument vis a vis the supposed selfish actions / industrial action / negotiations by tube drivers in relation to their job security / pay / perceived worth.

Marty, Stuart & Maggy - you appear to be venting angst on the basis that you feel somehow hard done by because according to yourselves there are no tube drivers who have degrees / comparable degrees or that degrees obtained by others are undervalued by comparison. Where have you got this information from?

Take a leaf from Iggy's book and act on a self centred basis by withdrawing your labour with no consideration for anyone else or, alternatively, join a union and negotiate - and if needs be strike - to get what you think you're worth.

You do not always need specific qualifications, although most employers will expect you to have a good general standard of education, including maths and English GCSEs. Some mechanical or electrical knowledge may also be useful.

https://nextstep.direct.gov.uk/Plann...ges/Entry.aspx

http://www.traindrivertrainee.com/Tr...onditions.html

Whilst i do not have a degree (i am self employed) i can understand why people who have invested a large amount of money getting degrees in order to advance their careers and earn a higher wage .I daresay that some train drivers may have a degree but dropped out of their initial chosen career path once they realised their degree wasn't worth as much as a train drivers certificate

[Mr Angry]

Life choices folks, we all make them.

Never assume anything about others.

---------- Post added at 11:00 ---------- Previous post was at 10:53 ----------

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

....

In your attempt to defend your own rights you have illustrated the tube workers points perfectly.

They, like you, are also entititled to negotiate their perceived value.

The difference being, of course, they dont whinge about your right to negotiate your negotiated / contracted / legal employment rights on public forums because they somehow feel offended or potentially inconvenienced by certain actions which that might involve.

---------- Post added at 11:06 ---------- Previous post was at 11:00 ----------

Originally Posted by martyh

Whilst i do not have a degree (i am self employed)....

Does having a degree bar people from being self employed? No.

Originally Posted by Mr Angry

Does having a degree bar people from being self employed? No.

I didn't say it did

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Mr Angry

Life choices folks, we all make them.

Indeed,

I'm always interested as to what degrees these graduates that can't get jobs have? And at what level.

We appear to going a little "off track*" here.

I have no issues people being paid a fair day's pay for a fare* day's work, but imho the RMT is weaselling, not negotiating - they had recently signed a new "no strike" deal in return for a handsome settlement, then a couple of months later found what they thought was a loophole.

Does anyone actually think that three times basic plus a day off in lieu is "reasonable"?




*arf arf

Originally Posted by Hugh

We appear to going a little "off track*" here.

I have no issues people being paid a fair day's pay for a fare* day's work, but imho the RMT is weaselling, not negotiating - they had recently signed a new "no strike" deal in return for a handsome settlement, then a couple of months later found what they thought was a loophole.

Does anyone actually think that three times basic plus a day off in lieu is "reasonable"?




*arf arf

Hugh its ASLEF in dipute this time not the RMT amazingly.

And no i think it not reasonable double time and a day in lieu is ample for the ASLEF drivers.

[Mr Angry]

Originally Posted by martyh

I didn't say it did

I know Marty, but you inferred that your being self employed was directly related to you not having a degree. I was merely pointing out that there are many, many people who have degrees who are self employed.

Originally Posted by richard1960

Hugh its ASLEF in dipute this time not the RMT amazingly.

And no i think it not reasonable double time and a day in lieu is ample for the ASLEF drivers.

<my bad>

However, these sort of claims, again imho, play into the hands of those who wish to be "Union Bashers".

Originally Posted by Hugh

<my bad>

Originally Posted by Mr Angry

I know Marty, but you inferred that your being self employed was directly related to you not having a degree. I was merely pointing out that there are many, many people who have degrees who are self employed.

That wasn't my intention .I mentioned that because ,being self employed ,i have made a not inconciderable investment in my chosen field and also feel that suffient remuneration is required to make that investment worth while as with people who have spent years doing degrees

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by Mr Angry

In your attempt to defend your own rights you have illustrated the tube workers points perfectly.

They, like you, are also entititled to negotiate their perceived value.

The difference being, of course, they dont whinge about your right to negotiate your negotiated / contracted / legal employment rights on public forums because they somehow feel offended or potentially inconvenienced by certain actions which that might involve.

My perceived value is one set by the job market and legitimately dependent on the supply of my skills and their value. It's nothing to do with any perception of my own personal value. I don't pick a figure out of thin air, I base it around advertised salaries.

The actual value of train drivers is perhaps a different story given the extremely high supply of people who are potentially capable and willing to do the job.

I don't regard this as reasonable negotiation but blackmail. I have no issues whatsoever with unions preserving the rights their workers have and ensuring that employers stick to agreements, it's a quite different matter demanding pay and benefits well above those that the market would suggest are appropriate under threat of strike action.

It's a remarkably cynical move in contravention of standing agreements to make the demands they did and the level of action is entirely disproportionate.

At the end of the day they are free to go elsewhere if they feel so hard done by, although of course them getting 45k, a relatively generous pension, such a short working week and such a huge amount of time off is a somewhat different matter.

We will evidently agree to disagree on this. I should also mention that I'm free to whinge on this or any other subject as I see fit and of course train drivers don't whinge about me, they know a good deal when they see one and aren't likely to complain when their unions can hold the largest city in Europe and one of only two A++ cities in the world to ransom at a whim.

[Mr Angry]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

My perceived value........

They have negotiated legal rights as do you.

Live with it.

I think the real issue is why do the employers keep agreeing to these ridiculous pay agreements?

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Maggy J

I think the real issue is why do the employers keep agreeing to these ridiculous pay agreements?

Because the tube drivers have leverage.

The capital grinds to a halt without the tube