Hamas Israel War

[jfman]

Relocating people from the land they are currently on into another country on the basis of ethnicity by force is absolutely ethnic cleansing.

As a rule of thumb as yourself “if Russia did it what would it be called?”. If the answer is something else from Israel doing it then the problem isn’t in Palestine it is staring you in the face in the mirror.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

Relocating people from the land they are currently on into another country on the basis of ethnicity by force is absolutely ethnic cleansing.

As a rule of thumb as yourself “if Russia did it what would it be called?”. If the answer is something else from Israel doing it then the problem isn’t in Palestine it is staring you in the face in the mirror.

I don't think it can be argued that Israel haven't taken it to the very limit and then beyond.

I think the term Ethnic Cleansing is valid and using dehumanising language, which I also believe to be true, is worrying.

There is no doubt, that Hamas are animals, but innocent Palestinians are not and dehumanising humans makes it easier to justify mis-treatment.

Whilst comparisons between what actions Israel has undertaken and the actions of Nazi Germany are ludicrous and insulting, Israel should stop and take stock.

They had a valid and just reason to take action. They have now, I would assume, severely affected Hamas. They have clearly showed what they are capable of doing in response to any further future attack, either by Hamas or anyone else.

I think now is the time to stop, they retain the option to restart should they have to.

I also think Hamas need to release the remaining hostages.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

John went to the extreme by calling relocation of Gazans to Sinai peninsular 'ethnic cleansing'.

Note that the JP article does not contain the word "animals". I don't know where that came from. But here is a quote from the JP article that sums it up reasonably well [my emboldenment of text].



For what my opinion and that of the JP is worth, there is not a kangaroo's fart of a chance that any of this will work. And it's not helped by the Israeli Ultras who. perversely, seem to favour ethnic cleansing judging by their actions in the West Bank.

This is not going to end well - except possibly for the eradication of the current Hamas set.

I am surprised you do not understand the concept of ethnic cleaning? Here's the currrent UN definition:

https://www.un.org/en/genocidepreven...leansing.shtml

"… rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove persons of given groups from the area." In its final report S/1994/674, the same Commission described ethnic cleansing as “… a purposeful policy designed by one ethnic or religious group to remove by violent and terror-inspiring means the civilian population of another ethnic or religious group from certain geographic areas.”

As for the animals quote, here you go:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/livebl...-food-or-fuel/

Defense Minister Yoav Gallant says he has ordered a “complete siege” of the Gaza Strip, as Israel fights the Hamas terror group.

“I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed,” Gallant says following an assessment at the IDF Southern Command in Beersheba.

“We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly,” he adds

https://twitter.com/SReports2/status...62775293280467

Israeli army's Major General Ghassan Alian speaks to Hamas and and the residents of Gaza: "Human animals must be treated as such. There will be no electricity and no water [in Gaza], there will only be destruction. You wanted hell, you will get hell."

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

I don't think it can be argued that Israel haven't taken it to the very limit and then beyond.

I think the term Ethnic Cleansing is valid and using dehumanising language, which I also believe to be true, is worrying.

There is no doubt, that Hamas are animals, but innocent Palestinians are not and dehumanising humans makes it easier to justify mis-treatment.

Whilst comparisons between what actions Israel has undertaken and the actions of Nazi Germany are ludicrous and insulting, Israel should stop and take stock.

They had a valid and just reason to take action. They have now, I would assume, severely affected Hamas. They have clearly showed what they are capable of doing in response to any further future attack, either by Hamas or anyone else.

I think now is the time to stop, they retain the option to restart should they have to.

I also think Hamas need to release the remaining hostages.

Anyone carrying out similar alleged war crimes (on the same level as what Israel are doing in the occupied territories) on Jews with their politicians openly using the rhetoric of ethnic cleaning would absolutely and legitimately be compared with the Nazis. No-one would even pause to consider such a comparison as controversial.

Truth hurts I guess.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by ianch99

I am surprised you do not understand the concept of ethnic cleaning? Here's the currrent UN definition:

https://www.un.org/en/genocidepreven...leansing.shtml



As for the animals quote, here you go:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/livebl...-food-or-fuel/



https://twitter.com/SReports2/status...62775293280467

Hamas are worse than animals.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Hamas are worse than animals.

However, the Israeli General wasn’t just talking about Hamas…

[jfman]

If that's the bits he's willing to say in public one can only fear for the motivational speeches he gives his troops as they go in to slaughter innocent women and children. The videos of piles of children laid out in Gaza, gunned down by sniper fire, might give us a clue.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Hugh

However, the Israeli General wasn’t just talking about Hamas…

I judged that his animals remark applied to Hamas.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

I judged that his animals remark applied to Hamas.

Course you did, the piles of dead children tell me who his remark applied to

Originally Posted by jfman

The videos of piles of children laid out in Gaza, gunned down by sniper fire, might give us a clue.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

I judged that his animals remark applied to Hamas.

Your judgement is not congruent with actuality.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/livebl...will-get-hell/

In a video statement, Maj. Gen. Ghassan Alian, head of COGAT, says: “Kidnapping, abusing and murdering children, women and elderly people is not human. There is no justification for that. Hamas has turned into ISIS, and the residents of Gaza, instead of being appalled, are celebrating.

“Human animals must be treated as such. There will be no electricity and no water [in Gaza], there will only be destruction. You wanted hell, you will get hell.”

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

Anyone carrying out similar alleged war crimes (on the same level as what Israel are doing in the occupied territories) on Jews with their politicians openly using the rhetoric of ethnic cleaning would absolutely and legitimately be compared with the Nazis. No-one would even pause to consider such a comparison as controversial.

Truth hurts I guess.

You very obviously have not listened to the Dan Carlin pod cast, the atrocities undertaken by the Nazis eclipse anything done by Hamas or Israel.

ISIS come close, but lack scale.

[jfman]

I have no interest in reading a propaganda piece timed to claim that some people have a monopoly on who can (and who can not) invoke the word genocide.

Esteemed members of the forum routinely used it in the Russia invading Ukraine thread. A short checklist of the reasons for doing so have been met and egregiously exceeded by the Israeli state by any metric going. Deaths of civilians (in particular women and children), attacks on hospitals, attacks on places of worship, attacks on universities or other cultural symbols.

I didn’t see this podcast (or any similar ones) released to seek to police the language used following Russia beginning the special military operation. The West were more than happy to throw around claims of genocide then, I see no reason for to back away now.

One may say genocide “as commonly understood”.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Pierre

You very obviously have not listened to the Dan Carlin pod cast, the atrocities undertaken by the Nazis eclipse anything done by Hamas or Israel.

ISIS come close, but lack scale.

I'm struggling to see the relevance or indeed value of a genocide ranking here.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

I have no interest in reading a propaganda piece timed to claim that some people have a monopoly on who can (and who can not) invoke the word genocide.

I didn’t ask you read it, I asked you to listen.

It’s not a propaganda piece, it’s factual history.

Anyway if you don’t want to listen that’s fine. I’ll recount a story from it.

The Jews, families, were made to queue. As they moved along the queue they were ordered to undress at stations by SS. 1st remove all jewellery, 2nd shoes, 3rd clothing. As they got closer to the mound of Earth they could hear gun fire.

Behind the mound, was a massive pit with steps cut into the Earth. Sat on the edge of the pit was an SS soldier with a machine gun firing into the pit.

After his salvo had finished the next group were ordered into pit. The man held the hand of his nine year son and whispered into ear and pointed to the sky, the woman held the two year old in her arms, grandparents and adolescents held each other.

Some already in the pit were still writhing around not yet dead. The group were ordered to lay down on the bodies already in the pit, and the SS soldier fired off another salvo.

Gaza is terrible on its own merits but it is nothing compared to the holocaust and should never ever try to be equated to it. That my point.

---------- Post added at 20:50 ---------- Previous post was at 20:48 ----------

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

I'm struggling to see the relevance or indeed value of a genocide ranking here.

It’s not a ranking, it an equivalence that is trying to be pushed, where there absolutely isn’t one.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Gaza is terrible on its own merits

I fail to see the point in centring current Palestinian suffering at the hands of the Israeli state around the historic suffering of Jews.

It’s up to others what terms they seek to use but I’m absolutely confident in those I have put forward in this thread. Historic events are irrelevant.

If the Jewish state cannot ground it’s own morality and treatment of others informed by history I fail to see why anyone should ground their judgement of it there.