Would you like to see Celtic and Rangers in the English league?

[LondonRoad]

I think what people forget is, before Moonbeams Murray started throwing silly money about, The top tier of the Scottish game was very competitive. Aberdeen, Dundee United, Hearts and Hibs were frequently in the hunt for trophies. Both Rangers and Celtic finished in 5th spot on at least one occassion in the days before the Souness revolution.

All these clubs went deeper and deeper into debt trying to compete financially with Rangers. They bought expensive imports, many of whom couldn't lace the boots of the players they replaced, and paid ridicolous high salaries.

At the time of Celtic's near demise Murray famously stated "For every £5 pound Celtic spend Rangers will spend £10".. and they did.

It's just a pity it wasn't their own money

The news isn't getting any better for the club who were Rangers

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18496571

"The Scottish Premier League says Rangers have "a prima facie case to answer in respect of [league] rules" over payments to players."

The history may have to be rewritten of the old Rangers to remove a few titles they won illegally.

[Derek]

Originally Posted by LondonRoad

"The Scottish Premier League says Rangers have "a prima facie case to answer in respect of [league] rules" over payments to players."

The history may have to be rewritten of the old Rangers to remove a few titles they won illegally.

Pffft. Given the SPL's record of enforcement I can't see that going ahead, even if it does they'll make a hash of it.

Still even if they do the titles will always be Rangers in the minds of their fans. Celtic count the goals they scored during WW2 even though they aren't officially theirs (funnily enough their record defeat to Rangers during that period isn't counted in their records )

Originally Posted by Alan Fry

I am sure the other 11 club (if Rangers is not among them!) would want a chance of winning the SPL title rather than Celtic winning all the time! (at least the EPL has 3 to 5 team who have a chance of winning it!)

The other teams might want a chance to win but it doesn't change the fact the rules don't allow Celtic to move leagues and the English clubs don't want them.

Originally Posted by Alan Fry

Also, if Rangers does close, what team will its fans support? (Certainly not Celtic!)

They'll support the new Rangers team that will be playing at Ibrox.

Originally Posted by Stephen

I have a feeling they may vote no.

They'll vote the way Lawell tells them to...

3rd Division is the way forward for Rangers. Stuff the rest of them, let them see how they get on with a vastly reduced media deal and the loss of two big home gates each season. Rangers should go on and rebuilt and let the investigations into Murray, White, Duff and Phelps and the rest run their course.

If the home crowds increase then happy days, I can't see it and think the crowds will reduce overall. Certainly after the initial boost the manky mob will see their reported gates drop off markedly without the Old Firm games. There are an awful lot of Mothers Days over in the East End.

[Alan Fry]

Originally Posted by LondonRoad

I think what people forget is, before Moonbeams Murray started throwing silly money about, The top tier of the Scottish game was very competitive. Aberdeen, Dundee United, Hearts and Hibs were frequently in the hunt for trophies. Both Rangers and Celtic finished in 5th spot on at least one occassion in the days before the Souness revolution.

All these clubs went deeper and deeper into debt trying to compete financially with Rangers. They bought expensive imports, many of whom couldn't lace the boots of the players they replaced, and paid ridicolous high salaries.

At the time of Celtic's near demise Murray famously stated "For every £5 pound Celtic spend Rangers will spend £10".. and they did.

It's just a pity it wasn't their own money

The news isn't getting any better for the club who were Rangers

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18496571

"The Scottish Premier League says Rangers have "a prima facie case to answer in respect of [league] rules" over payments to players."

The history may have to be rewritten of the old Rangers to remove a few titles they won illegally.

I blame the decline of the new firm (which began when Fergie moved south of the border), for the continuing dominance of the Old Firm.

Celtic did face near demise in in mid-90s, but ironically they are now owned by two Irish businessmen, (Dermot Desmond and Denis O'Brien), a group a lot of which have faced financial ruin. Ironically it’s Rangers, not Celtic that is facing the same fate!

Craig Whyte and David Murray have ruined a long established football club, I feel that best thing to do is for the fans to buy the club, except relegation to 3rd division and rebuild the team so it become a challenge to Celtic again!

Until that happens, I hope other SPL clubs challenge Celtic for the title (not likely though), if not, then Celtic should move to the EPL

---------- Post added at 10:07 ---------- Previous post was at 10:03 ----------

Originally Posted by Derek

Pffft. Given the SPL's record of enforcement I can't see that going ahead, even if it does they'll make a hash of it.

Still even if they do the titles will always be Rangers in the minds of their fans. Celtic count the goals they scored during WW2 even though they aren't officially theirs (funnily enough their record defeat to Rangers during that period isn't counted in their records )



The other teams might want a chance to win but it doesn't change the fact the rules don't allow Celtic to move leagues and the English clubs don't want them.



They'll support the new Rangers team that will be playing at Ibrox.



They'll vote the way Lawell tells them to...

3rd Division is the way forward for Rangers. Stuff the rest of them, let them see how they get on with a vastly reduced media deal and the loss of two big home gates each season. Rangers should go on and rebuilt and let the investigations into Murray, White, Duff and Phelps and the rest run their course.

If the home crowds increase then happy days, I can't see it and think the crowds will reduce overall. Certainly after the initial boost the manky mob will see their reported gates drop off markedly without the Old Firm games. There are an awful lot of Mothers Days over in the East End.

The English Leagues have allowed the big Welsh Clubs (Cardiff, Swansea etc) to compete in their leagues already, whats to stop them doing the same to Celtic

Are you also suggesting that if the deal falls through Rangers fans will buy the club and start again the in the third division?

[Henkesghost]

Think there's a real chance Newco Rangers may not get off the ground either, looking bad for them with Smith walking away. Stories rife re the transfer of assets being dodgy and fraud involving the now deceased Rangers and an ex Rangers(RIP) manager.

[Derek]

Originally Posted by Alan Fry

The English Leagues have allowed the big Welsh Clubs (Cardiff, Swansea etc) to compete in their leagues already, whats to stop them doing the same to Celtic

Thats a historical anomaly, kind of like England, Scotland, Wales and NI having their own international teams despite all being part of the UK.

If teams start picking and choosing where they play it'll cause chaos and there is no way UEFA or FIFA would allow it as the bigger teams would start cherry picking where they want to play.

Originally Posted by Alan Fry

Are you also suggesting that if the deal falls through Rangers fans will buy the club and start again the in the third division?

No. I'm suggesting the newco starts again in the 3rd division regardless of who owns them.

There is still life in this story. Down the line there is a good chance of criminal charges against people involved. Duff and Phelps could well find themselves having to answer to their regulators as to why they've ignored the rules for administrators and the diddy teams ganging up on Celtic to get 50/50 splits in all gate money and a fairer split in the reduced media deal.

[LondonRoad]

Originally Posted by Derek

Pffft. Given the SPL's record of enforcement I can't see that going ahead, even if it does they'll make a hash of it.

Still even if they do the titles will always be Rangers in the minds of their fans. Celtic count the goals they scored during WW2 even though they aren't officially theirs (funnily enough their record defeat to Rangers during that period isn't counted in their records )

AHA, I'm beginning to spot the commonality of the Rangers Supporters' skills of debate.
Deflect your wrongdoing by introducing a comparison to another team, no matter how irrelevant it is... Don't show any contrition because "we're the people".

I can't say I've ever heard any Celtic Fans boasting of war time goals as one of their achievments? Perhaps as individual scoring records and usually with a footnote. It's generally agreed, as a matter of sporting integrity, that wartime records aren't official. Some Clubs had all their players on the front line and relied on guest players. Other clubs had players available because they were in vital industies - like the shipyards in Govan

The Celtic supporters mostly remember those special achievements outwith the war years, like VE Cup, Coronation cup, Empire Cup, First team to achieve 9 in a row, first British team to win a big silvery thing in 1967... what was it called again. (They won everything they entered that year, it's so difficult to remember them all )

A big cup that Moonbeams wanted so badly that he's killed your club trying to achieve it, by any means - foul or, erm, fouler.

I love your Ben Johnson approach to Sporting Integrity.

It doesn't matter what the Rangers fans think - the history books will forever portray them as cheats.

History to be proud of:
RFC(deceased 2012) aka Scotland's Shame

won 49 Scottish titles *

*won 54 on the park but stripped of titles because they cheated.

Won European Cup Winners Cup 1972*

*Couldn't defend trophy after being banned from Europe for 1 year (Fans rioting in Barcelona)

Won the UEFA fair play award after their UEFA Cup Final defeat in Manchester
in 2008 due to their fans good natured banter.

(One part of this may not be true )

[Derek]

I'm sure you really don't want to get into a slanging match about the history and actions of teams, their officials and fans.

[LondonRoad]

Originally Posted by Derek

I'm sure you really don't want to get into a slanging match about the history and actions of teams, their officials and fans.

That's what football banter is all about Deek

I'll never defend the lowlife who unfortunately follow the same team as I, nor the behaviour, on occasion, of some officials. I'm sure you can dreg my posts to find my criticism of our current manager. I've even gone on record for criticising the late and great Jock Stein.

Equally, I reserve the right to criticise the lowlife that used to follow the Rangers football Club (aka Scotland's shame)... and those who used to own and run it. Scotland's shame ... the establishment club, the Tesco superstore reduced to being passed around from one barrow boy to another.... if the support really cared about it they'd have done something about it.

Even after LLoyds had taken over the Bank of Scotland and noticed the large financial hole that was there the Rangers fans went on a "We deserve better walk" to protest at Moonbeams cutbacks. Reality still hasn't struck. The acceptance that the Serco football club may have to start in div3 is seen as a way of showing the rest of the country how much we need the Gers.

You must surely agree though that it was moonbeams aspirations to win the ultimate European trophy that killed Rangers.... well that and the willingness of some establishment figures and the press to pander to his dreams...

[shaunthebrummie]

its like when celtic(sporting wing of the ira)come to england and sing the songs praising the bombs and murders of people in pubs and coaches..thats why their are hooligans,or some would say community patriots.we will defend our(england/english)towns from foreign terrorist invaders,who are known to have blown up pubs etc.also if celtic played in english football,you wouldn't be able to bring children to watch the matches..i..because of the violence that would ensue..2.. kids and celtic....i dont think so... "one green bottle,standing on a wall"........you know how it ends..

[Stephen]

^^^
Yet another posting of utter nonsense and non truth.

[Henkesghost]

Originally Posted by shaunthebrummie

its like when celtic(sporting wing of the ira)come to england and sing the songs praising the bombs and murders of people in pubs and coaches..thats why their are hooligans,or some would say community patriots.we will defend our(england/english)towns from foreign terrorist invaders,who are known to have blown up pubs etc.also if celtic played in english football,you wouldn't be able to bring children to watch the matches..i..because of the violence that would ensue..2.. kids and celtic....i dont think so... "one green bottle,standing on a wall"........you know how it ends..

Ridiculous post complete and utter nonsense

[Alan Fry]

Originally Posted by Henkesghost

Think there's a real chance Newco Rangers may not get off the ground either, looking bad for them with Smith walking away. Stories rife re the transfer of assets being dodgy and fraud involving the now deceased Rangers and an ex Rangers(RIP) manager.

Is there any chance that Rangers fans are prepaired to buy the "new" Rangers and restart it in the third division?

[LondonRoad]

Originally Posted by Alan Fry

Is there any chance that Rangers fans are prepaired to buy the "new" Rangers and restart it in the third division?

There doesn't seem to be an appetite for it.

The clubhas been up for sale for years and there's been no conserted effort from any of the fans groups to buy the club. Previous Share issues have been under subscribed.

The Fighting fund launched by Walter Smith and Sandy Jardine raised about quarter of a million pounds. A lot of money but a fairly low total for a club the size of Rangers.

[Alan Fry]

Originally Posted by Derek

Thats a historical anomaly, kind of like England, Scotland, Wales and NI having their own international teams despite all being part of the UK.

If teams start picking and choosing where they play it'll cause chaos and there is no way UEFA or FIFA would allow it as the bigger teams would start cherry picking where they want to play.



No. I'm suggesting the newco starts again in the 3rd division regardless of who owns them.

There is still life in this story. Down the line there is a good chance of criminal charges against people involved. Duff and Phelps could well find themselves having to answer to their regulators as to why they've ignored the rules for administrators and the diddy teams ganging up on Celtic to get 50/50 splits in all gate money and a fairer split in the reduced media deal.

I find is very unusal that we are the only nation that is represented by seperate teams in the international stage (bar a few exceptions) and we have different national league systems as well.

I have called for Europe top clubs to leave their National Leagues to form a European Super League (so that smaller teams have a chance at the Top League Titles). I have also called for Top clubs from smaller European Nations to form a new league called the Atantic League (to compete better with top leagues of England, Spain, Italy and Germany)

Those suggestions will help Football overall, I see no reason why FIFA and UEFA disagree...

As for the Rangers debarcle, I hope that after all this Scottish Football is better in the long run

Also how does the SPL-SFL merger affect all this?

[Alan Fry]

Just found this out, "New" Rangers wanted to buy Bury FC (in League One) so that they compete in League One if they cannot get into the SPL

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2...ngers-takeover