KILL unwanted or disabled babies at birth as they are not a real person'
06-03-2012, 13:59
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#91
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Re: KILL unwanted or disabled babies at birth as they are not a real person'
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien
...a lot of people would generally not consider the foetus as a person. ...
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In the same way that a lot of people don't think of the ham in their sandwich as a dead pig.
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06-03-2012, 14:01
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#92
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Re: KILL unwanted or disabled babies at birth as they are not a real person'
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien
You need to remember that during the time in which a abortion can be carried out a lot of people would generally not consider the foetus as a person. In their mind they are not killing anyone but stopping a life from occurring, it is different as the same distinction that could be made about birth control.
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Well they are wrong, they are both killing someone and stopping a life from occurring (both of which are bad things)
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06-03-2012, 14:13
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#93
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Trollsplatter
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Re: KILL unwanted or disabled babies at birth as they are not a real person'
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien
You need to remember that during the time in which a abortion can be carried out a lot of people would generally not consider the foetus as a person. In their mind they are not killing anyone but stopping a life from occurring, it is different as the same distinction that could be made about birth control.
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This is precisely the point of the whole debate. If the baby is not a person at or before 24 weeks, at what point does he or she qualify?
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06-03-2012, 14:16
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#94
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Remoaner
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Re: KILL unwanted or disabled babies at birth as they are not a real person'
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNorm
In the same way that a lot of people don't think of the ham in their sandwich as a dead pig.
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Well the pig would have been born.
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06-03-2012, 14:18
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#95
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Re: KILL unwanted or disabled babies at birth as they are not a real person'
On the topic of stricter limitations, what are the chances of women having an abortion abroad if stricter limits were imposed here?
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06-03-2012, 14:28
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#96
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Trollsplatter
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Re: KILL unwanted or disabled babies at birth as they are not a real person'
Doubtless some would, but it would most certainly reduce, if not entirely eliminate, the almost casual lifestyle abortion reported in the Tele link above.
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06-03-2012, 14:28
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#97
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Remoaner
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Re: KILL unwanted or disabled babies at birth as they are not a real person'
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris
This is precisely the point of the whole debate. If the baby is not a person at or before 24 weeks, at what point does he or she qualify?
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I think whatever line we draw would be somewhat arbitrary. I would say that once it's becomes impractical would be the line and the real beginning of life is either when the organism in question can exist unaided or when they develops consciousness. Neither of these things are true at the time we legally can perform abortions, at that point it's still a biological process.
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06-03-2012, 14:33
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#98
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Re: KILL unwanted or disabled babies at birth as they are not a real person'
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris
Doubtless some would, but it would most certainly reduce, if not entirely eliminate, the almost casual lifestyle abortion reported in the Tele link above.
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To be honest, that article is pretty much an opinion piece. Now clearly, I can't speak for the reasons why women do have abortions, but in the absence of any data to back up the claims I'm tempted to take that article with a pinch of salt.
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06-03-2012, 14:35
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#99
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Trollsplatter
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Re: KILL unwanted or disabled babies at birth as they are not a real person'
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien
I think whatever line we draw would be somewhat arbitrary. I would say that once it's becomes impractical would be the line and the real beginning of life is either when the organism in question can exist unaided or when they develops consciousness. Neither of these things are true at the time we legally can perform abortions, at that point it's still a biological process.
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This, too, is at the heart of the issue under discussion. 24 weeks is arbitrary. If an unborn child is not a person at 23 weeks, they are not in fact a person at 26 or 28. In fact if it is a matter of when they can live unaided, a lot of premature births result in the delivery of a non-person. Yet we do not treat them as such.
The use of consciousness is also highly problematic. Animals are conscious yet are not people at any point in their lives. If you mean self-conscious, then babies are arguably not self-conscious at the point of natural, unaided birth.
Question: At what point after conception does the biological process become a person?
---------- Post added at 14:35 ---------- Previous post was at 14:34 ----------
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielf
To be honest, that article is pretty much an opinion piece. Now clearly, I can't speak for the reasons why women do have abortions, but in the absence of any data to back up the claims I'm tempted to take that article with a pinch of salt.
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It is an opinion piece, but it is one that relies on anecdotal information the author assumes to be accurate and I think we have no reason to disbelieve him.
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06-03-2012, 14:41
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#100
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Re: KILL unwanted or disabled babies at birth as they are not a real person'
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris
It is an opinion piece, but it is one that relies on anecdotal information the author assumes to be accurate and I think we have no reason to disbelieve him.
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I have no reason to disbelieve the anecdotal information, but neither do I have a reason to believe that the picture he paints is widespread.
I have no doubt there are many cases where women become pregnant through carelessness and opt for an abortion because they are not ready for children. It's not something I condone (the carelessness), but it is a fact of life, and I don't think it's in the interest of either the woman or the child to carry on with the pregnancy.
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06-03-2012, 14:43
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#101
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Remoaner
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Re: KILL unwanted or disabled babies at birth as they are not a real person'
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris
This, too, is at the heart of the issue under discussion. 24 weeks is arbitrary. If an unborn child is not a person at 23 weeks, they are not in fact a person at 26 or 28. In fact if it is a matter of when they can live unaided, a lot of premature births result in the delivery of a non-person. Yet we do not treat them as such.
The use of consciousness is also highly problematic. Animals are conscious yet are not people at any point in their lives. If you mean self-conscious, then babies are arguably not self-conscious at the point of natural, unaided birth.
Question: At what point after conception does the biological process become a person?
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I don't think there is a 'hard line'. I do think that it occurs after we legally allow abortions. I think it's either when they can exist unaided, or theoretically can with medical intervention in the case of a pre-mature birth, or when they develop consciousness. Both of these things occur prior to birth.
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06-03-2012, 14:43
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#102
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Re: KILL unwanted or disabled babies at birth as they are not a real person'
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris
This is precisely the point of the whole debate. If the baby is not a person at or before 24 weeks, at what point does he or she qualify?
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Moment of conception!
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06-03-2012, 14:56
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#103
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Re: KILL unwanted or disabled babies at birth as they are not a real person'
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Fry
Moment of conception!
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And you base that on what?
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06-03-2012, 15:09
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#104
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laeva recumbens anguis
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Re: KILL unwanted or disabled babies at birth as they are not a real person'
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Fry
Moment of conception!
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Nice of you to decide what to do with other's bodies.....
Are you like Santorum, who is also against contraception, as this inhibits the moment of conception?
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06-03-2012, 16:33
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#105
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Re: KILL unwanted or disabled babies at birth as they are not a real person'
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh
Nice of you to decide what to do with other's bodies.....
Are you like Santorum, who is also against contraception, as this inhibits the moment of conception?
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Unlike Santorum, I am not calling for a total ban on Abortion and I disagree for ethical reasons, not relgious ones.
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