Brexit discussion

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

We are perfectly capable of signing our own trade deals, and a lot more quickly than the EU does.

Looks like to the rest of the world doesn't want us to have a good trade deal with the EU, who will still be our main trading partner.. The promised land might not be so sweet.

Global powers lobby to stop special Brexit deal for UK

hopes of securing a unique post-Brexit trade deal with the EU were under threat on Saturday night as Brussels said it was coming under international pressure to deny Britain special treatment.

After a week that saw May reach a deal with the EU that will allow Brexit talks to move forward on to future trade relations, EU officials insisted a bespoke deal more favourable to the UK than other non-EU nations was out of the question.

One EU source close to the talks said: “We have been approached by a number of [non-member] countries expressing concerns and making it clear that it would constitute a major problem for them if suddenly the UK were to get better terms than they get.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...y_to_clipboard

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Damien

You can’t have a border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the U.K. either. The agreement says so and so do the DUP.

There won't be for EU goods and citizens. But non EU entry will have to go through normal customs checks from all ports.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

There won't be for EU goods and citizens. But non EU entry will have to go through normzl customs checks from all ports.

How is that not being in a custom unions with the EU? In fact that's even further than a custom's union as citizens won't be checked either....

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Mr K

Looks like to the rest of the world doesn't want us to have a good trade deal with the EU, who will still be our main trading partner.. The promised land might not be so sweet.


https://www.theguardian.com/politics...y_to_clipboard

You seem to be happiest when posting negative stories about our leaving the EU, Mr K.

Given that the electorate voted to leave, why are you seemingly willing us to fail? Whatever happens to the negotiations, we are still leaving, one way or the other.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

So in your view, Andrew, what the EU want is what the EU gets. We will see about that!

I've never said that but as the bigger negotiator it clearly holds the upper hand. That's how these things work I'm afraid.
But, as others and I have tried to explain, even if the EU had theoretically wanted to sign some amazing deals with the UK, its previous trade deals with third countries won't allow it to sign a more advantageous deal with a third country. So the UK has to decide upon an existing deal based upon the constraints that the Irish border issue imposes.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

We are perfectly capable of signing our own trade deals, and a lot more quickly than the EU does. A decade in negotiation with the US and still no deal!
Why do you and other remainers have such faith in these guys?

Your clear anti-EU bias comes through when you mention the US. Did it never occur to you, even for a minute, that it might be the US that's the difficult country? If you had been more open-minded and conducted some basic research you would see the US's problems with free trade and the EU's success at it. Trump scrapped the trade deal with the EU, a decision ironically popular with the left in Britain concerned about "backdoor" privatisation of the NHS.

Let's examine the facts. Here's a list of EU trade deals
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe...ade_agreements
http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/po...de-agreements/
Deals with 35 countries signed and in force.
Deals with a further 27 countries provisionally applied
Deals with a further 23 countries agreed but not signed
Above data excludes Japan recently signed!

The US has free trade deals with 20 countries including the countries in NAFTA.

Let's hone in on the US:
1. List of free trade deals
https://ustr.gov/trade-agreements/free-trade-agreements

Two completed negotiations are mentioned at the foot of the list:
TPP - the Trans-Pacific Partnership. The US has now left this partnership.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...=.5562ef0a4bc0
T-TIP - the Transatlantic Trade & Investment Partnership, mentioned at the foot of the document. Following Trump's election, the US quit this too. http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...-a7543706.html

2. Despite Canada and the US being in the NAFTA free trade area, Canada has just stopped buying some Boeing planes from the US in a trade dispute.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-c...-idUSKBN1DZ2W2

In conclusion, I'm not asking you to agree with me. My ask is that you do a little research first.

[pip08456]

I'm glad the US quit T-TIP . It is a terrible agreement.

Originally Posted by pip08456

I'm glad the US quit T-TIP . It is a terrible agreement.

Yes and just look at the US economy since Trump’s election win. It’s booming. Trump has killed a lot of job killing regulations. When ABC misreported the Michael Flynn story, they said Candidate Trump told Flynn to make contact with the Russians, in their eyes, this Fake News they had just told, seemed collusion was confirmed, the US stock market went in to free fall. When it was corrected that it was in fact President-elect Trump who had told Flynn to make contact with the Russians in order to reach out to them and be more diplomatic than the Obama Administration was, the markets recovered.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

I've never said that but as the bigger negotiator it clearly holds the upper hand. That's how these things work I'm afraid.
But, as others and I have tried to explain, even if the EU had theoretically wanted to sign some amazing deals with the UK, its previous trade deals with third countries won't allow it to sign a more advantageous deal with a third country. So the UK has to decide upon an existing deal based upon the constraints that the Irish border issue imposes.



Your clear anti-EU bias comes through when you mention the US. Did it never occur to you, even for a minute, that it might be the US that's the difficult country? If you had been more open-minded and conducted some basic research you would see the US's problems with free trade and the EU's success at it. Trump scrapped the trade deal with the EU, a decision ironically popular with the left in Britain concerned about "backdoor" privatisation of the NHS.

Let's examine the facts. Here's a list of EU trade deals
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe...ade_agreements
http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/po...de-agreements/
Deals with 35 countries signed and in force.
Deals with a further 27 countries provisionally applied
Deals with a further 23 countries agreed but not signed
Above data excludes Japan recently signed!

The US has free trade deals with 20 countries including the countries in NAFTA.

Let's hone in on the US:
1. List of free trade deals
https://ustr.gov/trade-agreements/free-trade-agreements

Two completed negotiations are mentioned at the foot of the list:
TPP - the Trans-Pacific Partnership. The US has now left this partnership.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...=.5562ef0a4bc0
T-TIP - the Transatlantic Trade & Investment Partnership, mentioned at the foot of the document. Following Trump's election, the US quit this too. http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...-a7543706.html

2. Despite Canada and the US being in the NAFTA free trade area, Canada has just stopped buying some Boeing planes from the US in a trade dispute.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-c...-idUSKBN1DZ2W2

In conclusion, I'm not asking you to agree with me. My ask is that you do a little research first.

A fair point about the present state of affairs in relation to the US, but I don't agree with you that the EU holds the upper hand in these negotiations. They need us more than we need them, to be honest.

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

You seem to be happiest when posting negative stories about our leaving the EU, Mr K.

Given that the electorate voted to leave, why are you seemingly willing us to fail? Whatever happens to the negotiations, we are still leaving, one way or the other.

Yes, I know we're leaving OB, but there is still a lot to be decided. We need to know that negotiating trade deals might not be as easy or as good as if we were part of the EU block. We need to take this into account when deciding what sort of Brexit we end up with

Not a fan of TM or her divided party but think she's played a blinder, and has started to direct us towards the least damaging 'soft Brexit'. It's not so much done 'one over' on the EU, but totally wrong footed her own swivel eyed loonies that don't represent the majority of leave voters, they just represent their own narrow interests and political ambitions. They initially said what a wonderful deal she'd done, but are now backtracking now they've read the small print ! Too late

A reminder of the first post in this thread.

Guidelines

The constant baiting, belittling of either side of the vote needs to end. The new thread must be a reasonable and a frank debate, it's impossible to agree on this topic but none of this "he/she is thick" or "you're a snowflake".

Further use of language like ‘traitors’, ‘swivel eyed loonies’, etc, will be rewarded by prompt use of the Sanity Clause.

[1andrew1]

It's time the Government started to think about jobs and investment and not keeping people like BoJo and Rees-Mogg happy. Here's two industries that think this.

Britain’s chemical and pharmaceutical industries have called on the government to allow them to remain within EU rules to avoid endangering investment and supply chains, even as Eurosceptic ministers step up a campaign to break away from the bloc’s regulations.
The issue of regulatory divergence has moved centre stage in the Brexit debate since Friday’s divorce deal with Brussels, in which prime minister Theresa May agreed that Northern Ireland would not stray far from EU rules in order to ensure there would be no hard border with the Republic of Ireland.
In a letter to Michael Gove, environment secretary and the UK cabinet’s leading champion of regulatory divergence, the Chemical Industries Association urges the government “to do all it can to remain within or as close as possible” to the EU’s rulebook for the sector.
Steve Elliott, the association’s chief executive, said leaving the EU framework “would seriously bring into question 10 years of investment, as registrations and authorisations that permit access to the EU single market would suddenly become “non-existent” on exit day”.
Referring to Reach, the framework legislation for the sector, he said the EU regulation was “far from perfect” but added that it was still the best way of “ensuring that cars continue to run, planes continue to fly and medicines continue to work”.
But the European Chemicals Agency, which determines EU standard-setting for the safety of chemicals and access to the single market, comes under the legal framework of the European Court of Justice, whose jurisdiction Brexiters are determined to end.

https://www.ft.com/content/8a9d05ce-...4-0a1e63a52f9c

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Damien

How is that not being in a custom unions with the EU? In fact that's even further than a custom's union as citizens won't be checked either....

We are not staying in the customs union because this means we cannot secure our own trade deals. However, that doesn't mean that we cannot benefit from some aspects of it.

If we are and remain in line with the EU's regulatory rules, I see no reason why this can't work.

[OLD BOY]

Nice to have some good news!

Well done, Theresa.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42303059

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

We are not staying in the customs union because this means we cannot secure our own trade deals. However, that doesn't mean that we cannot benefit from some aspects of it.

If we are and remain in line with the EU's regulatory rules, I see no reason why this can't work.

We could well mirror the customs union and not sign our own trade deals; it's an unknown.
An interesting article in today's FT "The UK has tied its Brexit hands" by Martin Sandbu predicts how things could well end up:

Fourth and finally, this would not actually be such a bad deal for Brexit Britain. Unless Northern Ireland has a special status, “full alignment” as a way to avoid border checks on the island of Ireland will also suffice to avoid border checks between Britain and continental Europe. That would rule out independent free-trade agreements, but would safeguard the UK’s participation in manufacturing supply chains such as car production. Not a bad prize. It would not do anything for services, of course, but on the other hand the British obsession with ending the free movement of people would be satisfied.

https://www.ft.com/content/ac8fc340-...4-0a1e63a52f9c

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

It's time the Government started to think about jobs and investment and not keeping people like BoJo and Rees-Mogg happy. Here's two industries that think this.

https://www.ft.com/content/8a9d05ce-...4-0a1e63a52f9c

What complete and utter bull! Why would any company need the government's guidance or permission to comply with the requirements of any country or trading bloc they wish to deal with?