8 Dead and 48 Injured in London Bridge Terror Attack

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

Yes it is a minority commiting these attacks but they have broader support within the islamic communities and that support has grown despite all efforts to address that. There is no magic bullet here no single measure that's going to resolve this and we need to work with the islamic community but they need to realise they cannot continue as they have previously. It's no longer acceptable that all the effort for change is on our side there needs to be change within islam in the west and they need to do more then just go in front of cameras after an attack with condemnation that lasts only as long as the camera is on and have a different stance when they go back to their mosque.

Well we know the Manchester bomber was reported, multiple times, from within the community. They raised concerns after he protested against a sermon in a Mosque arguing against jihad. Although we are waiting for more information about Saturday's attackers it's reported one of them was reported multiple times as well. So they're doing more than condemning it in front of cameras.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Damien

I believe it's clear from the context of his post he means the former. We obviously need to clamp down on radicalisation and extremism but we should perverse our own freedoms whilst doing so, i.e I don't think we should ban end-to-end encryption or force companies to build a 'back door' in.

He is certainly right we should not give the terrorists the war they want. They broadly want to provoke a clash of civilizations and turn this into the West vs them. There are of course some Britain First types who want such a war as well.

I'm not sure what the answer is ultimately but for all the tough talk from some I don't think I am alone in that. It's also a problem elsewhere. After all there have been far-right attacks that seem to have, in part, been inspired from the Internet as well.

I agree: banning end-to-end encryption and/or introducing NSA-style "back doors" would be a disaster for all sort of reasons not least that these "secret & secure" Government access paths invariably get leaked and so get used by the hacking & malware criminals against us.

If you listened to the Sam Harris podcast I posted a while back, in which he analyses the ISIS on-line news feeds and concludes that they don't actually care that we did or did not bomb their lands (although they do use this as fuel in their radicalisation process). They hate us because of what and who we are. We can stop bombing in Syria, etc. and they will still hate us.

A very very tiny minority report but a larger group do nothing and support the attackers and we clearly cannot rely on that, yes he was reported to police and security services that are overloaded because the number of people on watchlists is outstripping the resources to watch them. The answer isn't the usual easy way of throwing more money at it or even more personnel we have a number of people on the watchlist that are not UK citizens rather then wait to see we should simply cancel their documents and deport them decreasing the numbers and removing a part of the threat.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Ramrod

Suddenly, Trumps approach doesn't seem all that bad.....

I disagree. Trump approach is to daemonise all Muslims for actions of a very small minority. This is doing the work of ISIS for them. The path only leads to more racial tension esp. in the US where, ironically given their origins, a lot of Americans seem to currently have an intolerant & fearful attitude to Muslims (both US born and migrants).

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

A very very tiny minority report but a larger group do nothing and support the attackers

Is there evidence for that?

[denphone]

Originally Posted by Damien

Is there evidence for that?

No its just exaggeration of the facts being distorted to suit ones own views and opinions..

[ianch99]

Maajid Nawaz has some good thoughts on combating this evil:

Maajid Nawaz: Stop Saying Violence Has Nothing To Do With Islam

Maajid Nawaz's Four-Point Plan To Defeat Islamist Terrorists

"And fourth and finally, these Jihadists are attacking us because they despise our freedom, our democracy, our human rights, our secularism, our pluralism, our respect for difference.

"They despise everything we stand for, so why would you, if you know that that's why they are attacking us, also endorse an attack on those very same values?

"If the terrorists are attacking us because they hate our freedom and our human rights and our democracy and our secularism and our pluralism, then why would you do their job for them by undermining those very values in your response or reaction to these attacks?

"That means we must jealously guard and preserve our way of life, what we stand for, our values that we cherish, because that is the best way to fight these terrorists.

"Democracy and secularism is our best revenge.Freedom and democracy and pluralism and tolerance is the way in which we fight back, because that's the very thing they want to undermine.

It's what i hear from others that most intelligence on islamic threats comes from electronic surveillance with a very small amount coming from within the community itself. The code of not informing on a fellow muslim is very strong and while some mosques are working with authorities again the majority are not. Biggest problem i have in this debate is I can't discuss how or where or from whom i get information and some of it is also reinforced by my own experience. My number one concern is for the safety of both this country and it's citizens regardless of race, colour, culture or religion and that's it so if you can find any post from me that's​ appropriate to your comment Denphone then link to it.

Originally Posted by ianch99

You are correct here up to a point. By saying that these acts are just comparable to other non-Islamist crimes can give credence to the position that Islam is no different to the other world religions and as such, does not have a specific issue re: religious terrorism.

This is patently not the case. Islamic terrorism is a serious dilemma that the Muslim community has to grapple with.

Totally agree - however, I was not comparing them, I was pointing out that other mass killings by individuals had happened that were not Islamic terrorist related (which the OP said wasn't the case).

Here is another one from today.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/...605-story.html

I think we need to start treating those individuals and institutions within our countries inciting others to commit terrorism as terrorists - it will be difficult to balance the line between free speech and inciting terrorism, but some of the comments made are obviously inciting terrorism, so get those "low hanging fruit" first.

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by ianch99

I disagree. Trump approach is to daemonise all Muslims for actions of a very small minority

iirc, he was simply trying to temporarily halt travel from some states for a while. Seems it's ok for Saudi et al to do the same to Quatar today but it's not ok for the USA or UK to do something similar. Is it 'cos we is white?

Originally Posted by Hugh

I think we need to start treating those individuals and institutions within our countries inciting others to commit terrorism as terrorists - it will be difficult to balance the line between free speech and inciting terrorism, but some of the comments made are obviously inciting terrorism, so get those "low hanging fruit" first.

I agree but isn't it already a criminal offence?

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by Damien

I agree but isn't it already a criminal offence?

Certainly is Damien.

[Taf]

There's a lot of anger and hate around at the minute. I would like to say a few things about London.

Firstly from the phone ringing to dead terrorists in 8 minutes. Unbelievable response by the police. Unbelievable.

The off duty copper who rugby tackled the three of them.

The bloke running down the street with his fresh pint saying I paid £6 quid for this I'm not wasting it!!

The men and women in the pub throwing chairs and glasses fighting back.

The paramedics saving people's lives.

The black cab drivers rushing people away from the scene.

The cabbie who tried to hit the terrorists as they jumped out the van, the hotels treating the wounded.

The bloke who went back to the restaurant this morning to pay his bill.

The locals giving up there beds to stranded strangers..... DIVIDING US? THESE B*ST*RDS ARE UNITING US!

I'm so proud of this wonderful, amazing, mental, diverse, warm, funny, superb city.

THIS IS LONDON BABY. The city I grew up in and love. Change our way of life? Yeh good luck with that one!

Ian Reading

[1andrew1]

A very good article from the International Centre for the Study of Radicalisation at King's College, London, on how people are radicalised. Worth reading in full, this section is particularly pertinent.

However, our research suggests that the decisive factor in moving people from being extremists in terms of their thoughts and beliefs to becoming terrorists is not online propaganda but offline social networks.
It now seems likely that at least one of the attackers had been part of the extremist network al-Muhajiroun - based around the notorious British extremist Anjem Choudary, who was convicted of inviting others to support IS in 2016.
Choudary also had a YouTube channel, but practically all of his followers were known to him personally and were recruited face to face.
What he offered was a sense of community, belonging, and camaraderie within a circle of peers.
This builds strong interpersonal bonds based on what has been called "in-group love".
The internet plays an important role in terms of disseminating information and building the brand of organisations such as IS, but it is rarely sufficient in replacing the potency and charm of a real-world recruiter.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40161333

Diane Abbott did a bit of a car crash interview on Skynews tonight. Dermot asking her stuff on a Terror Report written by Lord Toby Harris, that was commissioned back in Oct 2016. She claimed she has read it but when asked on specifics, she did not have a bloody clue.

But when Dermot was asking about the recommendations in the report about putting Barricades up, that were finally put on the main London Bridges in last 24 hours following Sat Terror Attack, she was questioning why London Mayor who is her IRAbour colleague, Sadiq Khan, why he had not done this after the Westminster attack back in March.

https://mobile.twitter.com/GuidoFawk...15910104936448