Eurozone will collapse...

Originally Posted by Damien

Because their way of life is not sustainable.

Indeed. And arguably the best way to force them to recognise this is to cut them loose from the Euro and let them balance the books for themselves, using Drachmas.

Originally Posted by mertle

I have to say I back the ordinary folk of Greece its not there fault so why should THEY be punished with even more hypocrite austerity. Then thats the fault greek government like UK's dont attack the right people for the mess but hit the soft targets.snippety snip snip.

Error.

"the ordinary folk" are the one's avoiding taxes, having two months pay as a bonus each year, and retiring in their mid-50s on 70% of their salary - how can they not accept some responsibility for expecting a lifestyle that is not affordable/sustainable?

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Error.

"the ordinary folk" are the one's avoiding taxes, having two months pay as a bonus each year, and retiring in their mid-50s on 70% of their salary - how can they not accept some responsibility for expecting a lifestyle that is not affordable/sustainable?

Correct!

Just as responsible as all those who're now blaming the banks for everything whilst failing to take their portion of the blame for jumping on the property remortaging bandwagon and spending far more than they were earning without a care for what would happen when the bubble inevitably burst.

[Ignitionnet]

Greece doesn't need austerity forced down its throat, it needs to be cut loose and made to balance its own books being isolated from having Germany backstop its borrowing.

An end to such things as this would be a start.

[mertle]

Hugh this point too many rich people hogging all the money you say that simple workers its unreasonable to retire that early. I have advicated we should drive our retirement down to churn jobs in this country.

The 2 month pay holiday not issue if firms can afford messures infact it gives the working class more funds to spend again not issue.

What the issue is bosses whopping pay MP's cheating systems milking cow that now empty.

If Greece redistributed wealth they would ease the preasure the governments wont because propably they in the troughing too.

If we dont sort it out in this country then WE wont be far down road too.

Austerity measures fine if IT HITS ALL FAIRLY then argument that you cant squeeze blood out of stone.

Ignitionnet thats good point about porches doubt ordinary joe public the ones driving them. But its joe public these austerity measures hitting hardest its not there fault why blame them.

Wealth distribution seems the only answer to greeces woes fairly say its ours too. You wont get government who got the bottle to do it.

[Ignitionnet]

I'm reading the post above mine and it still isn't making any sense.

Widespread tax evasion at all income levels, systemic corruption and a ridiculously overweight, inefficient and corrupt public sector with completely unaffordable and unsustainable compensation and pensions aren't going to be fixed by redistributing wealth as far as I can see?

Oh and yes, ordinary people were driving the Porsches mertle. That was the point, ordinary people driving Porsches and dodging taxes.

Greece has less income inequality according to the UN than such states in peril as Australia, New Zealand, Italy and the UK. The ridiculously generous public sector compensation and benefits are a way of redistributing wealth, the problem is the wealth they redistribute isn't actually theirs to begin with as they don't collect their taxes, even if they did collect them there wouldn't be enough to cover the bills, and if they did collect them private capital would probably take flight from Greece as the environment would become so much more hostile to cover such an absurd level of public expenditure.

The austerity is futile in that Greece need to default and start again, without the Eurozone allowing them to borrow themselves stupid. That's the only reason I'm against it, they spent money they will never have and their economy cannot return to proper operation with the austerity measures.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by heero_yuy
Those of us who "survived" the nationlised suppliers of the sixties/seventies can vouch for the "Sod you" attitude that was wide spread then.

Too true. Short memories....

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by heero_yuy

You're not socialist enough!

I'm afraid that there are still some who think that nationlising all service providers automatically convert these companies into some kind of charitable provider with a social conscience.


Those of us who "survived" the nationlised suppliers of the sixties/seventies can vouch for the "Sod you" attitude that was wide spread then.

Oh it's fine, in Greece even the nationalised industries don't pay their taxes.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/03/bu...s-pile-up.html

Greece, where improving tax collection is a condition for aid from its E.U. partners and the International Monetary Fund, has started to publicize the names of companies that owe taxes, hoping that will shame them into paying. It recently released a list of 6,000 enterprises owing a total of more than €30 billion in taxes, including the state-owned railway operator.

I'm not quite sure how redistributing wealth would resolve this issue, I'm also not sure how it would fix the issues highlighted below:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/f...x-evasion.html

There have been some imaginative attempts to widen the collection pool. Helicopters have been hovering over plush suburbs in northern Athens in the search for swimming pools in the homes of professional people who claim they are living on only €35,000-€43,000 a year.

Cash provides a convenient escape route for lawyers, accountants and builders. The government has published the names of almost 70 doctors it says have cheated the taxman and some surgeons are said to be earning €900,000 a year and not declaring tax.

Economists estimate that 2m private sector workers are carrying the brunt of the tax load while a million public sector employees and 1.3m self-employed escape almost financially unscathed.

I think the German people have more cause to be upset at this bailout than the Greeks. The Greeks are getting some of their debt written off, gone, value which was spent by their government leaving someone else to pick up the bill.

The German government seems to have managed their economy sensibly and has avoided such a crisis but that means the German people didn't get the benefits of early retirement on massive pensions and had to pay more in tax. They are now expected to bailout their neighbours for their lavish lifestyle.

If I was German I would be livid at the Greek government right now and demanding they get kicked out right now.

[Osem]

For Geman taxpayers substitute all those UK citizens who didn't fuel the property bubble, didn't spend what they didn't have, didn't borrow like there was no tomorrow but saved and invested for their future and you have a significant proportion of the population who've done nothing wrong, have acted prudently and are suffering hugely through meagre investment returns and inflation. They didn't run up vast sums of credit and walk away but just like the Germans they're the ones paying for the excess of others. In what way is that a recipe for encouraging long-termism and personal responsibility in financial matters?

My elderly parents downsized from a modest semi to a one bed flat a few years ago. To supplement their basic state pension (Dad was a self employed manual worker after WWII) they were relying on the interest on their modest savings but even this has dried up. They've done the right thing, worked hard, scrimped, saved and gone without all their lives and have been rewarded by having what little extra income they had being lost. How's that for encouragement?

How anyone thought the Eurozone could work is beyond me. It flies in the face of all we know about human nature and as always the innocent suffer. Ironically, when you consider the motivations behind the EU, it's the stuff that leads to unrest and wars isn't it?....

Originally Posted by Osem

For Geman taxpayers substitute all those UK citizens who didn't fuel the property bubble, didn't spend what they didn't have, didn't borrow like there was no tomorrow but saved and invested for their future and you have a significant proportion of the population who've done nothing wrong, have acted prudently and are suffering hugely through meagre investment returns and inflation. They didn't run up vast sums of credit and walk away but just like the Germans they're the ones paying for the excess of others. In what way is that a recipe for encouraging long-termism and personal responsibility in financial matters?

How anyone thought the Eurozone could work is beyond me. It flies in the face of all we know about human nature....

Such as me .I am a sole trader and could have used my quite reasonable credit to buy a new van for work ,new furniture for the house a couple of decent holidays ect ,ect .Instead i didn't use any credit but refurbished the van i have ,bought good quality second hand furniture and took on extra work instead of going on holidays .Today i don't have a credit card bill ,mortgage payments and van payments so i think i have weathered the storm quite well but i still see my earnings being whittled away by rising costs .

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by heero_yuy

You're not socialist enough!

I'm afraid that there are still some who think that nationlising all service providers automatically convert these companies into some kind of charitable provider with a social conscience.


Those of us who "survived" the nationlised suppliers of the sixties/seventies can vouch for the "Sod you" attitude that was wide spread then.

Yep they had the same financial aims as the Labour party. Spend spend spend then spend some more and then if needed beg for more from the next government

[mertle]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

Oh it's fine, in Greece even the nationalised industries don't pay their taxes.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/03/bu...s-pile-up.html



I'm not quite sure how redistributing wealth would resolve this issue, I'm also not sure how it would fix the issues highlighted below:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/f...x-evasion.html

well they should collected the tax or chaised up those who owed that therefore is the fault of the government. No doubt they doing the same.

Its noticable that in this country to lesser degree allowing the same issues we allow 1bn unclaimed taxes go allow people to trough into tax havens.

Yes nationalising critical infrastructure firms would in my opinion give the country safety net. We shown enough companies cant run trains without bailouts which is disgraceful. We proven companies cut corners causing train crashes. We seen what the urtilities have done to cripple country with high bills.

Ok state own was rubbish but that was down to government at the time not operation properly.

Now if they was run better then they could make nice earner for the government net result tax burden lessens. There nothing fundemently wrong with state own business its how its run which can be. Governments ran them down used them too much a cash cow or ran them down that bad they became burden.

As for business are charity cause they are they there to provide jobs that in essense is the crux existence. They make money themselves as reward its when those profits impact jobs which what I hate. Sacking workers to provide shareholders bosses huge returns or wages is quite frankly wrong.

Its about time they provide higher minimum wage say £8 raise bar skilled workers too. Too many companies using the tax credit to justify only providing the lowest wage. Higher pay means more spending more money goes to buying goods will drive economy.

The tax credit should then be reduced burden on the firms to provide decent living not government top workers pay. I think tax credit relief should be only support companies who cant afford to provide decent wage ie small profit businesses. Businesses should pay up.

However the meantime Government has to sort out DEAR standard living sort out the banks, the expensive house market/land costs. Once sorting control it so it dont get out of hand again.

The south need to be sorted to be fair jobs should be spread arround country. Dont understand incestant need to get all jobs around london when other areas have good transport link, infrastructure workforce links to europe.

Its one craziest things that company who makes items them travels up motorway then boards a boat goes to europe. Surely if they export be near the port make items there less transport costs and cheaper to own factory up north too. Plus crazy thing job workforce cheaper. Problem is governments subsidised firms to setup in london and the area even though its costing more. The added bonus would be housing issue would be less lots empty properties up north. They would not keep running out water. simply to many live down south hint less traffic jams too.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Sirius

Yep they had the same financial aims as the Labour party. Spend spend spend then spend some more and then if needed beg for more from the next government

Yes I heard Ed Balls' middle name is Viv....

[mertle]

Originally Posted by Sirius

Yep they had the same financial aims as the Labour party. Spend spend spend then spend some more and then if needed beg for more from the next government

so narrow minded to what happening so private businesses who now run previous state owned been so good running these companies. They never had goverment financial support they not charged the hilt to breaking point.

Its causing this country so much more these businesses not state owned.

The add danger is our utilities owned by foreign countries who to say they deliberately charging high to cripple our Businesses and our country.

Lets all put head in sand say austerity doing fantastic job that labour was to blame for whole mess when yes they partly blamed but they tried to bail rightly or wrongly those who put us in mess. I think Labour was wrong should hit banks hard. Labour had same problems they tried to solve it they also had some disasters in world which they helped the tusami springs to mind. I would not be suprised the banks did it deliberate knowing they would get bailed labour would cribbled the country doing so they would got there tory chummies back in.

Labour also desided waste money playing war games guess what coalisition likes doing same therye all bad each other.

The crazy situation governments think everyone should own home or 100% employment is pipedreams. All parties set out policies which never good for the country but self interests.

Quite frankly all three parties useless they either crazy or hurt the wrong people scared chasing those who trough all the money for capitilist greed.

I not talking about equality people deserve to earn have luxurious lifestyles. Its when they go tooo far when those decisions effect employment the haves haves go too far. Then something has to give the world in mess because of it there only one answer it aint quantitive easing. Making dud money will just implode it worse slight wealth redistribution is needed and big job creation.

read world needs 80 million jobs I doubt the businesses got the desire to create that numbers.

We need jobs we need money in hand people who will spend it. We need cost living back on course.

I read that the so called experts want interest rates cuts and housing boom there idiots false economy the last thing we need.