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Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
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Old 19-10-2016, 16:28   #76
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Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.

And that is the crux of the problem Hugh as if no one in a organisation or anywhere else questions things if they are not right then how do governments or others learn from their mistakes as they will just keep on repeating the same mistakes of before.
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Old 19-10-2016, 20:29   #77
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Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.

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Originally Posted by denphone View Post
And that is the crux of the problem Hugh as if no one in a organisation or anywhere else questions things if they are not right then how do governments or others learn from their mistakes as they will just keep on repeating the same mistakes of before.
And what if the employees did it the other way - denied benefits to those who were entitled to them by statute and policy?
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Old 19-10-2016, 20:33   #78
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Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.

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You have to remember the main DWP staff are given orders from the top apparatus of the DWP who themselves generally carry out the policies of those in power and sadly staff lower down are too afraid to question anything as they are likely to lose their jobs if they start questioning the policies of those higher up in the DWP.
You do know that there is an official Decision Makers' Guide that they are required to follow? Technically if they repeatedly don't apply those rules they are guilty of the criminal offence of "misconduct in public office".
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Old 19-10-2016, 20:45   #79
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Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.

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Originally Posted by nomadking View Post
You do know that there is an official Decision Makers' Guide that they are required to follow? Technically if they repeatedly don't apply those rules they are guilty of the criminal offence of "misconduct in public office".
Yes l know they have to follow a official Decision Makers' Guide.

---------- Post added at 19:45 ---------- Previous post was at 19:42 ----------

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Originally Posted by Hugh View Post
And what if the employees did it the other way - denied benefits to those who were entitled to them by statute and policy?
That is not the point though as the point is do the DWP and others ever learn from their mistakes from before and sadly the answer to that is probably no.
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Old 19-10-2016, 20:46   #80
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Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.

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Yes l know they have to follow a official Decision Makers' Guide.
So how are they getting it wrong by only doing what they are told?

They are also publicly accessible official assessment guides for ESA and PIP. Along with the Upper Tribunal rulings database, you can find out how the rules and the law are meant to be applied.
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Old 19-10-2016, 20:57   #81
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Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.

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So how are they getting it wrong by only doing what they are told?

They are also publicly accessible official assessment guides for ESA and PIP. Along with the Upper Tribunal rulings database, you can find out how the rules and the law are meant to be applied.
l think this tells you how much the DWP are getting it wrong and what is their answer to it and that is to make things even harder by severely tightening the criteria to make it even harder for people to get help with their everyday lives.

https://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/ne...-keep-climbing

https://www.theguardian.com/society/...isabled-people
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Old 19-10-2016, 21:04   #82
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Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.

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Originally Posted by denphone View Post
l think this tells you how much the DWP are getting it wrong and what is their answer to it and that is to make things even harder by severely tightening the criteria to make it even harder for people to get help with their everyday lives.

https://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/ne...-keep-climbing

https://www.theguardian.com/society/...isabled-people
But are they getting it wrong because they are told to, or are people such as those "around here" misquoting the rules helping the perpetuation of the misunderstanding of the rules and the law?
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Old 19-10-2016, 21:13   #83
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Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.

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But are they getting it wrong because they are told to, or are people such as those "around here" misquoting the rules helping the perpetuation of the misunderstanding of the rules and the law?
The DWP are not stupid as their decision makers are extremely well versed in the rules and the laws but quite clearly unless some people are blind to it there is a obviously a pretty bad problem as how else would so many decisions get overturned on appeal?.
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Old 19-10-2016, 21:53   #84
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Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.

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The DWP are not stupid as their decision makers are extremely well versed in the rules and the laws but quite clearly unless some people are blind to it there is a obviously a pretty bad problem as how else would so many decisions get overturned on appeal?.
The DWP decision makers/case managers are being simply being LAZY and passing the buck to somebody else. They simply say to themselves, "oh there's an appeal process, they can be the ones to do the work of looking at the documents instead".
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Old 19-10-2016, 21:54   #85
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Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.

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Originally Posted by RichardCoulter View Post
Sorry to hear that the DWP put you through this.

Whilst it is believed that this new system is designed to put people off claiming, I would urge you to try for PIP as this is exactly the outcome that Cameron wanted when he introduced it.

Whilst it's true that a lot of claims are turned down and that the DWP rarely change their decision at the Mandatory Consideration stage, when it goes to the tribunal stage the success rate is very good when independent people become involved.

As a result, the scrapping of DLA is not producing the savings expected (people are less likely to get help with mobility, but more likely to receive care).

The Government intend to deal with this sucess rate by changing the system:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/...unals-disabled
What they doing to try and redefine disability for immobile people is disgusting, easy for me to say I guess with me been included, but I can vouch for all the additional living costs that my disability has caused.

However I seriously cannot be bothered with it now, I would be very surprised to be awarded PIP on mobility.

It is not just the distances they changed, but also they now are able to "pretend" people have aids that they dont have and assume those aids can be used e.g. assuming someone can use a wheelchair and as a result disqualify them from claiming.
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Old 20-10-2016, 19:01   #86
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Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.

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Erm, as someone who's wife works in the DWP, can I just remind people that Civil Servants carry out the policies implemented by the elected Government - they can't just decide not to do things or change the rules because someone disagrees with those rules and policies.

Doing so would be a dismissal offence, just like it would be in most jobs (say, for instance, a supermarket check out operator decided not to charge a shopper for a trolley full of food because the customer looked poor).

If you are unhappy with the policies, lobby your MP to get them change, don't blame the poor bloody civil servant carrying out the policies.
True, but in benefits law there is a lot of discretion used eg sanctioning people, expected work related activity etc.

Some individuals have been caught being deliberately harsh or unfair towards claimants.
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Old 20-10-2016, 19:07   #87
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Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.

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What they doing to try and redefine disability for immobile people is disgusting, easy for me to say I guess with me been included, but I can vouch for all the additional living costs that my disability has caused.

However I seriously cannot be bothered with it now, I would be very surprised to be awarded PIP on mobility.

It is not just the distances they changed, but also they now are able to "pretend" people have aids that they dont have and assume those aids can be used e.g. assuming someone can use a wheelchair and as a result disqualify them from claiming.
But do you really know the way the rules are meant to be applied or are you "listening" to the myths, which are usually at best, an incomplete explanation of the rules. Eg There's a lot more to mobilizing than being able to go a certain distance.
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Old 20-10-2016, 19:10   #88
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Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.

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You do realise this sorts of things were going on long before 2010? A National Audit Office report highlighted problems, way back in 2003.
The real problems began in 2010 with Cameron's new 'Stricter Benefits Regime'.

This is when we started to hear about war veterans starving to death, disabled people being pushed out of their homes by bailiffs in their wheelchairs, a man having a heart attack during a DWP assessment being sanctioned for failing to complete said assessment, a man with cancer being told he has to make a choice between looking for work and receiving benefits to live on OR treatment for his cancer etc. The amount of deaths has shot up (including suicides).
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Old 20-10-2016, 19:13   #89
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Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.

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The real problems began in 2010 with Cameron's new 'Stricter Benefits Regime'.

This is when we started to hear about war veterans starving to death, disabled people being pushed out of their homes by bailiffs in their wheelchairs, a man having a heart attack during a DWP assessment being sanctioned for failing to complete said assessment, a man with cancer being told he has to make a choice between looking for work and receiving benefits to live on OR treatment for his cancer etc. The amount of deaths has shot up (including suicides).
The original ESA rules were set up Labour, as well as the later amendments suggested in 2009.
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Old 20-10-2016, 19:17   #90
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Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.

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But do you really know the way the rules are meant to be applied or are you "listening" to the myths, which are usually at best, an incomplete explanation of the rules. Eg There's a lot more to mobilizing than being able to go a certain distance.
You are correct, but the rules regarding speed, manner, pain etc are often overlooked by the private companies whose sole aim is to make money out of these assessments.

This is why I think that this function should not be completely outsourced and why so many appeals are successful.

---------- Post added at 18:16 ---------- Previous post was at 18:13 ----------

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The DWP decision makers/case managers are being simply being LAZY and passing the buck to somebody else. They simply say to themselves, "oh there's an appeal process, they can be the ones to do the work of looking at the documents instead".
As a former Decision Maker, I can say that you have hit the nail on the head (although staff cuts have played their part too).

This attitude also appears to be being taken by the banks ie just say no and let the Ombudsman decide.

---------- Post added at 18:17 ---------- Previous post was at 18:16 ----------

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The original ESA rules were set up Labour, as well as the later amendments suggested in 2009.
ESA is now a totally different animal to the one introduced by Labour.
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