Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !

Originally Posted by papa smurf

The enemy is not Michel Barnier – who is doing exactly the job required of him – but the Remoaners in our country seeking to undermine the democratic will of the nation to satisfy their own elitist beliefs."

That's obviously rubbish though. People expressing an opinion against the majority is itself a healthy sign of democracy. As I said in another thread about another topic you can't keep labelling people who disagree with you as enemies/traitors against the country.

Besides taking any lectures from the Express about national pride is a bit rich considering the only thing they seem to think was good about the country died twenty years ago in a car crash.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Damien

That's obviously rubbish though. People expressing an opinion against the majority is itself a healthy sign of democracy. As I said in another thread about another topic you can't keep labelling people who disagree with you as enemies/traitors against the country.

Oh they can and they will and it'll come as a big shock after handing out such abuse that near enough half the country don't offer any sort of support when they don't get the deal they were expecting

Besides taking any lectures from the Express about national pride is a bit rich considering the only thing they seem to think was good about the country died twenty years ago in a car crash.

It's a bit rich full stop, why anyone takes any notice of newspapers is beyond me, their influence far outweighs the sum of the readership which to be frank is in terminal decline and falling year on year as their readers literally die of, next to nobody reads these rags anymore, they're dinosaurs from a bygone age

[Osem]

The Express is irrelevant. Expressing an opinion is one thing and doing whatever they can to derail a democratically agreed process is another. If the vote had gone the other way by the same margin I reckon those who're trying to halt Brexit now wouldn't be quite so keen on accepting the other side's viewpoint. Nope, they'd be telling us all 'we won, suck it up because we're staying in the EU' or words to the effect.

We all have our opinions but the one indisputable fact is that the referendum vote was to leave not to stay half in, half out or any other variant that involves the UK being subservient to the EU without any choice in the matter.

Originally Posted by Osem

The Express is irrelevant. Expressing an opinion is one thing and doing whatever they can to derail a democratically agreed process is another. If the vote had gone the other way by the same margin I reckon those who're trying to halt Brexit now wouldn't be quite so keen on accepting the other side's viewpoint. Nope, they'd be telling us all 'we won, suck it up because we're staying in the EU' or words to the effect.

Well yeah but equally people would be pushing for a second referendum. As I said it was obvious the direction this would go when the vote looked to be close, which ever side it fell on.

[daveeb]

Originally Posted by Damien

Well yeah but equally people would be pushing for a second referendum. As I said it was obvious the direction this would go when the vote looked to be close, which ever side it fell on.

Indeed, as Nigel Farage said before the vote , if it's 52-48 in favour of remaining that would be unfinished business.

Originally Posted by Mr K

Maybe the media should just report the news whether it's good or bad for the Country or Government. To do anything else, wouldn't be doing their job.

So far, we seem to have got nothing out of the EU, and the negotiations are less than cordial. What a surprise ! They are united and we are divided. If anybody thinks we'll end end better off at the end of all this, they are kidding themselves. It's the biggest amount of self-harm a country has ever done itself.

The same doom and gloom as usual I see.

The self-harm was joining in the first place.

The EU is a failing, peremptory and imperious project, totally unbalanced economically, doomed to fail eventually.

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by Mick

The same doom and gloom as usual I see.

The self-harm was joining in the first place.

The EU is a failing, peremptory and imperious project, totally unbalanced economically, doomed to fail eventually.

Not any sign of the EU failing, despite Brexiters wet dreams. The Eurozone is booming and the UK economy is flatlining. You'll get less than a euro for a pound at the airports now.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/bu...70811.html?amp

The EU and Eurozone still have many problems but it's not quite as bad as a few years ago. There was a time when it looked as if there would be a domino effect across Southern Europe which would cause each country to drop out of the Eurozone in turn - that's less likely now.

Originally Posted by Mr K

Not any sign of the EU failing, despite Brexiters wet dreams. The Eurozone is booming and the UK economy is flatlining. You'll get less than a euro for a pound at the airports now.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/bu...70811.html?amp

Trust you to paint a gloomier picture of UK economic affairs. The British economy actually advanced 0.3 percent on quarter in the three months to June 2017, I would not call that flat!

Not any sign of EU failing?

Now you are taking the piss. We have not left bloc yet, 2nd biggest contributor, the other 9 net contributors refusing to give extra, to compensate for U.K exit. Poland's tensions escalating further with EU.....Yeah everything must be a bed of roses in the EU, looking through those tinted glasses....

[Gavin78]

Seems the EU is only interested in Money they don't appear to care if the UK leaves or not as long as they have money.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Damien

The EU and Eurozone still have many problems but it's not quite as bad as a few years ago. There was a time when it looked as if there would be a domino effect across Southern Europe which would cause each country to drop out of the Eurozone in turn - that's less likely now.

I beg to differ. None of the major long term problems have been solved, the can has just been kicked down the road in typical EU fashion. In the UK we've had more pressing things to occupy ourselves with in the last year or two but when the spotlight falls on the EU again their problems will be all too evident.

---------- Post added at 14:45 ---------- Previous post was at 14:42 ----------

Originally Posted by Mick

Trust you to paint a gloomier picture of UK economic affairs. The British economy actually advanced 0.3 percent on quarter in the three months to June 2017, I would not call that flat!

Not any sign of EU failing?

Now you are taking the piss. We have not left bloc yet, 2nd biggest contributor, the other 9 net contributors refusing to give extra, to compensate for U.K exit. Poland's tensions escalating further with EU.....Yeah everything must be a bed of roses in the EU, looking through those tinted glasses....

Yes it's the same when they look at Corbyn's cronies through them too.

---------- Post added at 14:47 ---------- Previous post was at 14:45 ----------

Originally Posted by Gavin78

Seems the EU is only interested in Money they don't appear to care if the UK leaves or not as long as they have money.

They'd like to have both of course. They're committed to being as difficult as possible in order to dissuade other nations from trying to leave their club. How about that for respect for democracy eh? The scared witless that their grand project will fail and they'll try to trample over anyone who gets in their way. Frankly I'd far rather not be part of that sort of 'union'.

[Osem]

It's nice to know that Barnier wants to 'educate' the British.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41140564

I wonder how he (and the usual suspects here) would have responded had Davis dared to use the same terminology when referring to the EU. Nasty, out of touch, racist, arrogant little Enlander perhaps?? The indignance would be huge and echoed scathingly throughout large sections of our media who refuse to accept the referendum result. It's the usual insults for anything and anyone who dares to disagree with the grand EU plan and bizarrely there are those amongst us who still refuse to see it. It's perfectly clear that these people believe they are right and nothing else matters. They have no respect for alternative views and are more than happy to indulge in insults, blackmail or whatever else it takes in order to further their ambitions. Democracy only matters to these people when it serves up what they want and sadly a whole lot of people around here need to wake up and smell the Euro-coffee.

---------- Post added at 22:32 ---------- Previous post was at 20:50 ----------

And this is the BBC proving how one sided their view of Brexit is.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41140564

Anyone would think they're being paid by the Eurocrats to broadcast their version of events without being at all concerned about the UK's interests.

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by Osem

It's nice to know that Barnier wants to 'educate' the British.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41140564

I wonder how he (and the usual suspects here) would have responded had Davis dared to use the same terminology when referring to the EU. Nasty, out of touch, racist, arrogant little Enlander perhaps?? The indignance would be huge and echoed scathingly throughout large sections of our media who refuse to accept the referendum result. It's the usual insults for anything and anyone who dares to disagree with the grand EU plan and bizarrely there are those amongst us who still refuse to see it. It's perfectly clear that these people believe they are right and nothing else matters. They have no respect for alternative views and are more than happy to indulge in insults, blackmail or whatever else it takes in order to further their ambitions. Democracy only matters to these people when it serves up what they want and sadly a whole lot of people around here need to wake up and smell the Euro-coffee.

---------- Post added at 22:32 ---------- Previous post was at 20:50 ----------

And this is the BBC proving how one sided their view of Brexit is.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41140564

Anyone would think they're being paid by the Eurocrats to broadcast their version of events without being at all concerned about the UK's interests.

I don't think it's much of "Educating" the British people but more of a warning shot to any other country considering leaving.

Bottom line he wants to make an example of us and if he continues on this course May's "No deal is better than a bad deal" may well come to fruition.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by pip08456

I don't think it's much of "Educating" the British people but more of a warning shot to any other country considering leaving.

Bottom line he wants to make an example of us and if he continues on this course May's "No deal is better than a bad deal" may well come to fruition.

There's clearly a large element of that as I stated elsewhere above If there is no deal at the end of this it'll be down in large part to the EU's intransigence and intention to send a warning message to other club members.

Really, who'd want to be part of a club run like that? A club which will hoover up members with promises of economic support and then do its utmost to stop them ever leaving if they dare to change their minds, even if that means doing economic damage to both sides. The answer to the question is a club which is run by politicians who're fixated entirely on achieving their objective of a single European state with them and their ilk, the Euro elite, at the helm, almost regardless of the cost. People like this really don't like to compromise.

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by papa smurf

Why do so many Remainers want Britain to fail? asks TIM NEWARK

http://www.express.co.uk/comment/exp...ail-Tim-Newark

The real problem is that too much negative reporting on our negotiating position from the liberal media could have a detrimental influence on business confidence by exacerbating fears about our ability to strike a free trade deal.

Make no mistake, this is not some abstract issue of interest only to economists, it would mean real people choosing to invest less money in our economy.

"If investment falters, Bank of England Governor Mark Carney has proved already that he is only too keen to keep interest rates at a historic low.

But as well as encouraging spending this in turn keeps sterling down and leads to higher inflation.

Such are the dangers that could undermine a successful Brexit.

The enemy is not Michel Barnier – who is doing exactly the job required of him – but the Remoaners in our country seeking to undermine the democratic will of the nation to satisfy their own elitist beliefs."

Your quote appears to indicate the writer's opinion is that the press shouldn't be publishing anything critical but should rather feed us propaganda to avoid undermining business confidence.

He then has the temerity to complain about democracy and elitism. If the man actually cared about democracy, rather than only being concerned about it when it suited him, he'd be open to that the UK's position can and may change, and to respect that, not demand that because his side 'won' there must be no dissent.

Most don't want the UK to fail, and I can't see how such rhetoric achieves anything besides division and further resentment. Describing people as 'enemies' because they don't share an opinion is disgusting.

If the Express is serious about wanting the best possible result for the UK, rather than the best possible result for Richard Desmond's tax bill, they could do worse than not publishing things like that.

I'd recommend a read of of the below, instead.

http://jackofkent.com/2017/09/critic...football-team/

---------- Post added at 12:29 ---------- Previous post was at 12:14 ----------

Originally Posted by Osem

It's nice to know that Barnier wants to 'educate' the British.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41140564

Things have certainly changed from the pre-referendum days when David Davis claimed our first stop would be Germany to cut a bilateral deal as German industry would lean on their government.

The exact quote is this:

"There are extremely serious consequences of leaving the single market and it hasn't been explained to the British people. We intend to teach people… what leaving the single market means."

Sadly not as explosive as the idea Barnier wants to teach the UK a lesson.

The sad part for me is you'd have hoped we'd have been taught this during the referendum campaign. It could be said we were, but it was written off as 'Project Fear'.

---------- Post added at 12:37 ---------- Previous post was at 12:29 ----------

Originally Posted by Osem

There's clearly a large element of that as I stated elsewhere above If there is no deal at the end of this it'll be down in large part to the EU's intransigence and intention to send a warning message to other club members.

Not really. The Conservative Party cutting off most options to play to their party faithful and win votes hasn't exactly helped either. Last year's conference dramatically reduced the UK's ability to negotiation and removed most of our latitude for absolutely no gain to the country, just a hoped-for gain for the Tories.

What the UK is asking for is absurd and impossible for the EU to even consider.

One example of the absurdity of the situation is encapsulated in this - https://twitter.com/MarrShow/status/904268532103315457

Any time pressures right now are largely the result of Article 50's timing being centred around party political reasons rather than pragmatism, then the wasting of a few months on an unnecessary election.

Even the timing of a transition period is being done for political reasons, the hard limit on it being before the next general election is due.

When I have the time I'll provide some examples of why so many of our demands so far are impossible. Those don't even provide a basis for negotiation, they are ridiculous.

---------- Post added at 12:42 ---------- Previous post was at 12:37 ----------

Originally Posted by Osem

We all have our opinions but the one indisputable fact is that the referendum vote was to leave not to stay half in, half out or any other variant that involves the UK being subservient to the EU without any choice in the matter.

If we want to trade with the EU freely that's simply not possible.

The EU is bound by the ECJ, so any trade agreement we want must, either directly or indirectly, be 'subservient' to the ECJ from their side.

Funny, there's a court in Luxembourg that fits the bill perfectly, not being subservient to the EU but in partnership.