Unstoppable migration?

[Osem]

Neither are the vast majority of Brit expats breaking the law, flouting the rules, forcing their way into trucks, trains, tunnels etc. etc etc.

What I would do may well be exactly the same but I certainly would not expect the host communities I was forcing myself upon to smile and just suck it up ad infinitum. How many times would you let a desperate homeless person in the UK accost you for money without changing your route or calling the police? What would you do if that homeless person threatened to throw themselves under a bus if you refused to help them or the one you helped yesterday brought his mates along for help the next day and the day after? We can have as much sympathy for these people as we like but we cannot help them all and the more we try to help the more there will be. It's not pleasant but it's a fact and you would no more share or turn over your home to desperate migrants than I would so how far does your sympathy go and how are you going to prevent it from being abused if you just open the doors to everyone who might want to come in?

In spite of all the sympathy some folks like to profess they have when referring to countless thousands of migrants being allowed into the EU, if even something as trivial (relatively) as their journey to work was delayed every day (as has been the case with the tunnel lately) it wouldn't take too long for all that sympathy to turn to anger.

[Osem]

German Chancellor Angela Merkel has been booed during a visit to a shelter for asylum seekers which was the focus of clashes at the weekend.

Far-right protesters shouted "traitor" as she arrived at the newly-opened centre in Heidenau.

Germany has seen a sharp rise in attacks on asylum centres, as it deals with record numbers of arrivals.

Earlier, police in Hungary used tear gas to disperse migrants protesting at a reception camp on the Serbian border.

Unrest flared at a crowded centre at Roszke. Hungary has said it is considering the use of troops to secure the border.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34061532

CNN currently showing footage of the growing problem in Hungary where record numbers of migrants are trying to force their way into the country from Serbia. Zoltan Kovacs, a Hungarian government spokesman said that people from over 67 countries are coming into Hungary (141,000) and the vast majority of them are not entitled to refugee status. About 30% originate from Syria. The EU's system for handling and dispersing refugees cannot cope with the numbers and there's a huge problem with what to do about economic migrants.

[Arthurgray50@blu]

The biggest problem here is not the amount of migration. Its the traffickers that should be found and stopped.

It was said recently, that there are BRITISH traffickers organising things. And sadly when they do reach the UK, which they will. Its us that will pick up the tab.

What this country has to do is employ Border agents, and check every lorry coming into the country. And the channel tunnel has to be double checked.

It will get worse.

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by Arthurgray50@blu

The biggest problem here is not the amount of migration. Its the traffickers that should be found and stopped.

It was said recently, that there are BRITISH traffickers organising things. And sadly when they do reach the UK, which they will. Its us that will pick up the tab.

What this country has to do is employ Border agents, and check every lorry coming into the country. And the channel tunnel has to be double checked.

It will get worse.

Pick up what tab ?

If they claim asylum they get a very limited amount until they're claim is processed/decided

If they don't claim asylum then the only thing I can think of is nhs treatment

So it's probably more expensive to go the route you suggest

But then, it's not about the money is it Arthur ? You little englander you

---------- Post added at 23:14 ---------- Previous post was at 23:09 ----------

Originally Posted by Osem

Neither are the vast majority of Brit expats breaking the law, flouting the rules, forcing their way into trucks, trains, tunnels etc. etc etc.

What I would do may well be exactly the same but I certainly would not expect the host communities I was forcing myself upon to smile and just suck it up ad infinitum. How many times would you let a desperate homeless person in the UK accost you for money without changing your route or calling the police? What would you do if that homeless person threatened to throw themselves under a bus if you refused to help them or the one you helped yesterday brought his mates along for help the next day and the day after? We can have as much sympathy for these people as we like but we cannot help them all and the more we try to help the more there will be. It's not pleasant but it's a fact and you would no more share or turn over your home to desperate migrants than I would so how far does your sympathy go and how are you going to prevent it from being abused if you just open the doors to everyone who might want to come in?

In spite of all the sympathy some folks like to profess they have when referring to countless thousands of migrants being allowed into the EU, if even something as trivial (relatively) as their journey to work was delayed every day (as has been the case with the tunnel lately) it wouldn't take too long for all that sympathy to turn to anger.

Source that shows the majority of migrants legally or illegally here are breaking the law ? Or is this yet again further verbal diarrhoea?

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by Arthurgray50@blu

The biggest problem here is not the amount of migration. Its the traffickers that should be found and stopped.

It was said recently, that there are BRITISH traffickers organising things. And sadly when they do reach the UK, which they will. Its us that will pick up the tab.

What this country has to do is employ Border agents, and check every lorry coming into the country. And the channel tunnel has to be double checked.

It will get worse.

"British" as in living in Britain.

The revelation was seized on by critics of French law enforcement officials, who have repeatedly said the problem is caused by gangs based in the UK.

The businessman was reportedly arrested on Tuesday and is the seventh person to be arrested in the region as part of a major crackdown on an Albanian gang who hide migrants in lorries before ferrying them across the border

From 2000, BEFORE Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria and Libya

In his second special report from the southern Adriatic, the BBC's Brian Barron investigates how Albanian gangsters are profiting from human trafficking One of Italy's top anti-Mafia magistrates says Albanian gangsters are taking control of organised crime on both sides of the Adriatic.
The most lucrative commodities are illegal immigrants.
...
Several million are believed to be in Italy, Greece, Spain, Portugal and Germany.

Not exactly a new problem.

From 2014.

But Jean-Claude Larue, who works in Calais for the charity Secours Populaire, said that the migrants don’t necessarily want to stay in France. “The Albanian people smugglers lie to the African migrants and tell them that they can work in the UK which they describe as El Dorado.” Mr Larue told The Independent that the gangmasters were demanding between €2,000 to €3,000 from the migrants.
...
The report also said that 61,591 migrants arrived in Italy during the same period, up from 7,913 in the first six months of last year. Eritreans make up one third of the migrants, the report said, while Syrians totalled 17 per cent.

Asylum seekers given homes and benefits were found to have iPads, mobile phones and flat screen televisions despite claiming they were "destitute", a report has found. The National Audit Office found migrants seeking permanent asylum in Britain were earning an income above legal levels required for them to be given housing and pay-outs.

From various official government sources.

A new standard rate of asylum cash support (£36.95 per person per week) is due to take effect from 10 August 2015. This will be a substantial reduction for single parents and families with children. The Government argues that households can make economies of scale, and that the new rate will bring the UK's provisions in line with practice in comparable EU states.

You’ll be given somewhere to live if you need it. This could be in a flat, house, hostel or bed and breakfast.
You can’t choose where you live. It’s unlikely you’ll get to live in London or south-east England.

Whilst waiting for a decision on the support application, temporary full-board or self-catering accommodation can be provided under section 98 of the 1999 Act.

[denphone]

Annual net migration hits record high at 330,000.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...-politics-live

[Osem]

According to what I just heard on Sky news, 3 years ago Hungary saw c. 4-5,000 migrants PA crossing its borders. The figure has for some time now increased to c 2,500 migrants per day which equates to an annualised figure of over 900,000 pa.

If, as the Hungarian Govt. states, 30% of these are Syrians (and therefore understandably at the top of the list for refugee status) that leaves 600,000 who aren't and most of these fall into the economic migrant category. I don't think some people are fully cognisant of the numbers involved, the rate at which the problem is growing and the fact that the hundreds of thousands backed up in places like Turkey, Italy, Greece, Hungary, Serbia etc. are eventually going to wind up elsewhere in the EU. The plight of the Syrians is not only masking the migrant problem but because the system is being swamped it's become an inducement for others to try to get in before it's too late. Not only that but the message is clearly being sent out by migrants (via social media etc.) who've succeeded to others as to where to go, what to say and how best to avoid detection and registration etc.
Look at the footage on TV and the overwhelming majority of those involved are fit young men, not families, children, the aged or the vulnerable and if we're going to care so much about their needs as economic migrants what are we doing about the plight of the really vulnerable who aren't young and fit and are trapped in desperation? If this is all about compassion where's their share?

---------- Post added at 10:39 ---------- Previous post was at 10:37 ----------

Originally Posted by denphone

Annual net migration hits record high at 330,000.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...-politics-live

That being the official figure which will almost certainly be an underestimate.

[Taf]

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

If they claim asylum they get a very limited amount until they're claim is processed/decided

At the newly-reduced rates they get slightly more than jobseekers allowance, but get free accomodation, gas, electricity and water. So far better off than a jobseeker.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Taf

At the newly-reduced rates they get slightly more than jobseekers allowance, but get free accomodation, gas, electricity and water. So far better off than a jobseeker.

Or a homeless 'vet' who's living on the streets in the UK and begging to survive or a guy who's been kicked out of the family home following a split and is living in a car. Not so much sympathy or support for them eh?

If we're going to hand out shelter and support (however modest) to people who're illegal economic migrants (and I believe we shouldn't), I'd prefer it if we dealt with the needs of our own desperate, hungry, homeless people first but hey they're not in the news and who's speaking up for them? Maybe they need to gang up en masse, head down to London and threaten to jump in the Thames in order to get some help.

[mrmistoffelees]

Separate figures, published by the OECD, show that almost 1.3million Britons with university-level education are living abroad, more than any other developed economy.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/poli...ent-drain.html

[denphone]

Originally Posted by Osem

That being the official figure which will almost certainly be an underestimate.

Yes its probably substantially much more then that.

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

Separate figures, published by the OECD, show that almost 1.3million Britons with university-level education are living abroad, more than any other developed economy.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/poli...ent-drain.html

Indeed. It's very unfortunate. They are now contributing to those economies rather than the one which educated them.

If you could explain the relevance of emigration of highly skilled Britons to unskilled economic immigrants to the UK that'd be great.

You seem to be trying to set up a straw man involving little Englanders and dislike of all immigrants. Even UKIP don't oppose all migration. They just want a points based system and work permits, which seems quite reasonable.

Canada is hardly famed for xenophobia. Try migrating there if you're unskilled. Try getting a permit to work there if there are Canadians who could do the job.

We have businesses screaming about a lack of skills despite record migration figures. Clearly the migration we are getting is not what our economy needs.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by denphone

Yes its probably substantially much more then that.

... and growing.

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

Indeed. It's very unfortunate. They are now contributing to those economies rather than the one which educated them.

If you could explain the relevance of emigration of highly skilled Britons to unskilled economic immigrants to the UK that'd be great.

You seem to be trying to set up a straw man involving little Englanders and dislike of all immigrants. Even UKIP don't oppose all migration. They just want a points based system and work permits, which seems quite reasonable.

Canada is hardly famed for xenophobia. Try migrating there if you're unskilled. Try getting a permit to work there if there are Canadians who could do the job.

We have businesses screaming about a lack of skills despite record migration figures. Clearly the migration we are getting is not what our economy needs.

Lets just get a few of your assumptions corrected here.

1) Im not trying to setup any straw men whatsoever.

2) Im not against a reasonable migration policy using a points based system. but i firmly believe we need to be more accomodating to those that potentially are coming from war torn/human rights breaches areas of the world. I'm a firm believer in innocent until proven guilty and i think there are those on this thread who without saying out loud would portray all of those at calais as an economic migrant.

3) If 1.3m Brits with a university degree left to go to another country to my mind there can only be one reason, that of economics

4) If 1.3m Brits with a university degree left and can make a contribution to another country, how many low paid workers tried to move.


So, what's the difference between a British person moving abroad for reasons of self improvement and that of someone trying to get here from Calais? Surely the only difference is that of the route/method taken.

Also, there is no actual crime of illegal immigration. it's what a person does when they get here that constitutes the offence.

PS if Britain is dying out for skilled workers, why dont we just stop people emigrating?

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

3) If 1.3m Brits with a university degree left to go to another country to my mind there can only be one reason, that of economics

4) If 1.3m Brits with a university degree left and can make a contribution to another country, how many low paid workers tried to move.


So, what's the difference between a British person moving abroad for reasons of self improvement and that of someone trying to get here from Calais? Surely the only difference is that of the route/method taken.

Precisely.

I have no idea how many low paid workers tried to move although would suggest that trying to move is irrelevant. I would speculate not that many given that we're in a relatively good place for job availability and many other places likewise in a good place aren't in the habit of importing unskilled labour en masse.

There are an awful lot of things in this world where the outcome is the same but the route/method make a lot of difference.

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

Also, there is no actual crime of illegal immigration. it's what a person does when they get here that constitutes the offence.

Actually yes, there is.

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/h_to_k/i...tion/#entering

Entering without Leave - section 24 Immigration Act 1971
This offence came into force on 1 January 1973.

The offence of entering without leave is committed only if no leave at all was granted. If leave was obtained by fraud then prosecutors should consider an offence of obtaining leave by deception under section 24(A) of the Immigration Act 1971 in addition to offences under the Forgery and Counterfeiting Act 1981.

This offence can only be committed by non-British citizens and requires proof that they knowingly entered the UK without leave of an immigration officer or in breach of a deportation order. The offence is committed on the day of entry only and is not a continuing offence.

The offence is a summary offence, the maximum sentence on conviction is 6 months' imprisonment or a maximum fine on level 4.

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

PS if Britain is dying out for skilled workers, why dont we just stop people emigrating?

I imagine this is because we aren't a fascist state. At least, not yet.

This is subject to change of course.