Eurozone will collapse...

The Euro was always a political vanity project. Greece should be out of it. Everybody knows that but nobody is prepared to stand up and say it. It seems as if the Greek voters are going to get to be the ones to bring the axe down. Good luck to them.

Apparently the government might collapse before they can hold a referendum. The Greek people want to stay in the Euro anyway, they just don't want to experience further cuts in order to receive the bailout.

In which case they seemingly want to both have their cake and eat it, which as we know is against the fundamental laws of the universe.

However, this whole situation does once again raise the prospect of a European electorate being denied a referendum on a crucial European issue. The disapproval of politicians in other parts of Europe is troubling. Democracy really does appear to be an inconvenience in any sphere in which the EU is involved.

Originally Posted by Chris

However, this whole situation does once again raise the prospect of a European electorate being denied a referendum on a crucial European issue. The disapproval of politicians in other parts of Europe is troubling. Democracy really does appear to be an inconvenience in any sphere in which the EU is involved.

Is this a crucial European issue for them? My understanding, quite likely wrong, is that this doesn't change Greece's relationship within the EU but involves accepting money from them in exchange for more cuts to balance their books.

It's a financial decision for the government to make, it is the type of decision they are elected to make. There are no constitution changes involved either.

[nomadking]

I suppose that the main problem with having a referendum on this, would be the extended period of uncertainty.

Originally Posted by Chris

In which case they seemingly want to both have their cake and eat it, which as we know is against the fundamental laws of the universe.

However, this whole situation does once again raise the prospect of a European electorate being denied a referendum on a crucial European issue. The disapproval of politicians in other parts of Europe is troubling. Democracy really does appear to be an inconvenience in any sphere in which the EU is involved.

Indeed, the EU would be wonderful thing but for us pesky citizens demanding rights

Originally Posted by Damien

Is this a crucial European issue for them? My understanding, quite likely wrong, is that this doesn't change Greece's relationship within the EU but involves accepting money from them in exchange for more cuts to balance their books.

It's a financial decision for the government to make, it is the type of decision they are elected to make. There are no constitution changes involved either.

The deal involves the presence of EU civil servants inside the Greek government machine to help ensure compliance. That in itself is a very troubling development and one which would have even me on the streets were it happening in my country to my government. Whether or not it is a formal change to a written constitution is immaterial in my view. It amounts to the institutionalisation of the European Union as a direct player in the business of government in Greece and arguably sets a precedent that historians might be pointing at years from now as the moment a Federal European Government was born, with powers to directly influence or even dictate the behaviour of state Governments, from within those governments.

It also imposes decades of taxation and falling living standards within Greece - consequences that will be felt by the Greek people, yet without the Greek people having had any opportunity to accept or reject them.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by martyh

Indeed, the EU would be wonderful thing but for us pesky citizens demanding rights

You mean like the right of wanting to be paid back the money lent out to countries like Greece?

Originally Posted by nomadking

You mean like the right of wanting to be paid back the money lent out to countries like Greece?

Default on a loan is as much a right as repayment - that's why interest rates vary according to the perceived risk of a default happening.

The value of any investment can fall as well as rise. 'twas ever thus. I don't advocate it as a lifestyle choice but there it is.

[Osem]

As has been seen within the banking sector here in 2007/8, the problem if one EU country defaults is that the prospect of others following is no longer deemed quite as unlikely as would have been the case just a year or two ago and that alters the confidence equation greatly. The markets hate uncertainty and I dare say the prospect of Greek default is being factored into their mood and decision making as we speak. God only knows what the 'least worse' option for us all is but let's hope that the EU leaders get to grips with this problem before it's past the point of no return (if it isn't already that is).

Meanwhile in the news at home, MF Global have today gone bust having seen, as I understand it, their exposure to dodgy EU sovereign debt come home to roost. Before the anti-capitalists rub their hands with glee, for every fat cat trader and City slicker who's lost their job in the company's Canary Wharf offices, there'll probably be 10 ordinary back office, support and other staff who're also now unemployed through no fault of their own.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/15519124

I'm beginning to suspect that we are already well past the point of no return and that continuing efforts to 'solve' the crisis are actually stalling tactics to give breathing room to those planning Greece's exit from the Euro.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Chris

I'm beginning to suspect that we are already well past the point of no return and that continuing efforts to 'solve' the crisis are actually stalling tactics to give breathing room to those planning Greece's exit from the Euro.

If I had any shred of confidence that Greece leaving the Euro would significantly help solve the problems in Euro-lala-land that prospect might make me feel a bit better.

[Traduk]

Originally Posted by DaiNasty

and if what Traduk says is correct, nuclear would be the right word. If a raft of credit default swaps are triggered it could be the start of a doomsday scenario.

I doubt and very much hope that the nuclear option does not get triggered. I think this media report sums the situation up very well and will save me typing loads.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...urozone-crisis

A major broker with a reported 6Bn exposure to Euro bonds filed for bankruptcy on Monday. It is (according to various reports) either the 7th or 8th largest bankruptcy in US history. A company with a prior net worth of over $40Bn has gone under in this ongoing mess and although tragic for the thousands of staff globally who have lost their jobs (I know a few of them) it is in reality a snowflake sitting on the tip of the iceberg in this crisis.

What I hope will focus European leaders minds is the old saying of "if you owe the a million, you are in trouble but if you owe the bank a billion they are in trouble".

With Italy also looking very vulnerable they must stop the problem with Greece and in Greece because failure to do so will see the other PIIGS coming under fire and one failure in Europe will be taken as the measure of European lack of resolve. The European now must walk the walk as talking the talk hasn't achieved anything. I think they will.

Previous crises that I have witnessed in the markets, like our ejection from the ERM were handled fairly well but we didn't have to convene a committee to talk about talks ad infinitum.

[mertle]

I have to say I back the ordinary folk of Greece its not there fault so why should THEY be punished with even more hypocrite austerity. Then thats the fault greek government like UK's dont attack the right people for the mess but hit the soft targets.

So would be hypocrite to think ordinary people in greece are wrong hope they get there corrupt government out and likewise I hope we got guts here.

All those greek millionairres probaly left sinking ship like rats.

I think we seeing finally the reason why you should not allow capitilst greed of excess profiteering over jobs.

We seeing the harm to economy of years of massive pay shifts gorging the money. I also think you seeing what happens when critical infrastructure is allowed to be dictated by market forces in pretence they was never going to profiteer inflate costs to businesses/people. We also see what happens when you lose control of housing prices and land costs.

Can we rectify it possible it might mean some ugly decisions nothing to do squeezing the life out people who cant be squeezed.

Hurt the banks, hurt the high roller businesses who wont job create. Would hasten to say new stock rules too to prevent histeria of investors removing shares too easily or at least make penalty TAX.

another might be distasteful for some but might actually help raise some capital for governments. When drugs is seized its destroyed when alcohol and sigs are seized not counterfeit its destroyed. I suggest it should be resold by government.

We not going to stop people using drugs it might be distatesful but it would mean legalising it. However sure if Government sold it under controlled system it could NET the government huge amounts money. Its blood money but we have to come off our pedestal accept it.

Also how much resale seized alcohol sigs would make could also be winner.

Councils who empty houses have loads furniture/goods which all gets crushed surely auctioning or selling them could make funds for councils.

Its crazy how much money we just flush down the drain when if we put some thought into it could earn the country funds.

Originally Posted by mertle

I have to say I back the ordinary folk of Greece its not there fault so why should THEY be punished with even more hypocrite austerity. Then thats the fault greek government like UK's dont attack the right people for the mess but hit the soft targets

Because their way of life is not sustainable.