Post-Brexit Thread

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

Genuine question, zero sass: would it be acceptable to anyone who is happy with Brexit for the UK to allow migrants from the EU on condition they were employed?

Fine by me. Obviously the jobs in question would be legitimate. Not simply 'cousin Ahmed' (or Bob/Ishmael/Gupta) saying that there was a job.
Edit: I voted for control of immigration, not zero immigration (actually, I voted for removal of EU control)

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

Full free market and financial passporting access, access to ERASMUS, EU research programmes, free movement for UK citizens within the EU come to mind immediately.

What's the fundamental objection to it if the terms are right?

It's just the EU with another name basically .

The single market is too restrictive to trade ,our economy relies far too much on the banks and other financial institutions so in my opinion we do not need or want the single market or financial passporting ,it's made the UK far too blinkered to the rest of the world and solely dependent on Brussels .So no ,in my opinion EEA membership is not an option we should be looking at and besides all of that one of the core principles of EEA membership is free movement of people ,this cannot be changed for one country or what is the point of the EU and EEA ?

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by martyh

It's just the EU with another name basically .

The single market is too restrictive to trade ,our economy relies far too much on the banks and other financial institutions so in my opinion we do not need or want the single market or financial passporting ,it's made the UK far too blinkered to the rest of the world and solely dependent on Brussels .So no ,in my opinion EEA membership is not an option we should be looking at and besides all of that one of the core principles of EEA membership is free movement of people ,this cannot be changed for one country or what is the point of the EU and EEA ?

Being in the EEA in no way prevents the UK diversifying its economy however we are where we are and financial services represents ~12% of both GDP and tax receipts. Personally I don't fancy a massive recession in the name of not being too dependent on financial services. It will take decades to rebalance the economy without causing extreme pain and can be done in or out of the EEA. The UK made the decision to increase dependency on it. As far as being dependent on Brussels the UK has been steadily, even within the EU, trading more and more outside of the single market. Clearly not that much of a dependency if, even in the customs union, we were able to reduce it.

Think you're mistaking the single market for the EU's customs union. The EU's customs union certainly restricts trade, presents common external tariffs to outside trade and prevents member states making their own trade deals. EEA membership does not, we control our trade policy in every way.

The principle isn't free movement of people it's specifically free movement of workers and family members. No changing of this to suit one country or another.

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/atyour...FTU_3.1.3.html

One of the four freedoms enjoyed by EU citizens is the free movement of workers. This includes the rights of movement and residence for workers, the rights of entry and residence for family members, and the right to work in another Member State and be treated on an equal footing with nationals of that Member State. Restrictions apply in some countries for citizens of Member States that have recently acceded to the EU. The rules on access to social benefits are currently shaped primarily by the case law of the Court of Justice.

----

Any national of a Member State has the right to seek employment in another Member State in conformity with the relevant regulations applicable to national workers.

The EEA is a very long way from being within the EU. Check it out a bit more.

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

The EEA is a very long way from being within the EU. Check it out a bit more.

I did and came up with this

The European Economic Area (EEA) brings together the EU Member States and three of the EFTA States (Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway). It was established by the EEA Agreement, an international agreement which enables these three EFTA States to participate fully in the Single Market. It covers the four freedoms, i.e. the free movement of goods, capital, services and persons, plus competition and state aid rules and horizontal areas related to the four freedoms (see point 4 for an overview of what is included in the EEA Agreement).
The objective of the EEA Agreement is to create a homogenous European Economic Area. All relevant EU legislation in the field of the Single Market is integrated into the EEA Agreement so that it applies throughout the whole of the EEA, ensuring uniform application of laws relating to the Single Market.

http://www.efta.int/eea/eea-agreemen...sic-features#1

Basically any member of the EEA has the same rights as full EU members ,we just voted against that so would anyone want to rejoin a club where anyone from the EU can move here and any trade agreement has to be cleared by Brussels and the other 27 remaining countries .Forget Europe it's a dying club

Originally Posted by martyh

I did and came up with this



http://www.efta.int/eea/eea-agreemen...sic-features#1

Basically any member of the EEA has the same rights as full EU members ,we just voted against that so would anyone want to rejoin a club where anyone from the EU can move here and any trade agreement has to be cleared by Brussels and the other 27 remaining countries .Forget Europe it's a dying club

Only those relating to the single market. You don't get the social chapter stuff.

Originally Posted by Damien

Only those relating to the single market. You don't get the social chapter stuff.

we still have to abide by the core principles of the EU and 2 of those are the whole problem

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Ramrod

Fine by me. Obviously the jobs in question would be legitimate. Not simply 'cousin Ahmed' (or Bob/Ishmael/Gupta) saying that there was a job.
Edit: I voted for control of immigration, not zero immigration (actually, I voted for removal of EU control)

Like a lot of other people I'm sure. What's wrong with wanting that I wonder? I bet there's not a single person here who'd be happy if their local council said that it'd be fine for any number of people to come and live in their street, village, town...

As it stands we have no control over EU migration and given the numbers involved that has to be worrying, especially at a time when the EU's future doesn't appear that rosy and far more people are clearly wanting to come here than go there.

[Hom3r]

Travel to Europe will cost me £0, as:

1. I don't have a passport, and won't pay the £70 or so to get one.

2. why go to Europe when there are better places to visit here.

I'll only get one if a job requires it and they pay for it.

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by martyh

I did and came up with this



http://www.efta.int/eea/eea-agreemen...sic-features#1

Basically any member of the EEA has the same rights as full EU members ,we just voted against that so would anyone want to rejoin a club where anyone from the EU can move here and any trade agreement has to be cleared by Brussels and the other 27 remaining countries .Forget Europe it's a dying club

For those in the EEA no trade agreement has to be cleared by Brussels. Again you're confusing the Single Market with the customs union.

Whether it's a dying club or not it's still 40% of our exports, and access to its market is a big motivation for international companies to employ people here.

So you want to forget Europe and you think we should get rid of our financial services sector. I'm quite glad you aren't a politician

---------- Post added at 21:24 ---------- Previous post was at 21:23 ----------

Originally Posted by Hom3r

Travel to Europe will cost me £0, as:

1. I don't have a passport, and won't pay the £70 or so to get one.

2. why go to Europe when there are better places to visit here.

I'll only get one if a job requires it and they pay for it.

Whatever floats your boat; I prefer to live in a bigger world

---------- Post added at 22:56 ---------- Previous post was at 21:24 ----------

So it was really worthwhile having that referendum to get some harmony into the Conservative Party over the EU.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...hard-brexit-c/

[Ignitionnet]

Just leaving this here as a reminder why it's so bizarre that there are Tories so horny over 'hard Brexit'.

Can the UK just go ahead and trade under WTO terms as soon as it leaves the EU?

No. In practice, the UK would have to detach itself from the EU and regularise its position within the WTO before it could sign its own trade agreements, including with the EU. As Roberto Azevêdo, the WTO’s director-general, said recently, there is no precedent for a WTO member extricating itself from an economic union while inside the organisation. The process would not be easy and would likely take years before the UK’s WTO position was settled, not least because all other member states would have to agree.

Putting us at the mercy of such states as our #1 fan Argentina who may want a chat about the Falklands, or Spain, who may rather like the look of Gibraltar.

This is a pretty bizarre definition of taking back control - putting our economy at the mercy of a large part of the rest of the world.

Welcome to a globalised world of supra-national institutions and complex legal frameworks.

[ntluser]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

Just leaving this here as a reminder why it's so bizarre that there are Tories so horny over 'hard Brexit'.



Putting us at the mercy of such states as our #1 fan Argentina who may want a chat about the Falklands, or Spain, who may rather like the look of Gibraltar.

This is a pretty bizarre definition of taking back control - putting our economy at the mercy of a large part of the rest of the world.

Welcome to a globalised world of supra-national institutions and complex legal frameworks.

Maybe the best idea is not to go for a trade deal with the EU or use the WTO model.

If we simply left the EU and the single market, those EU countries like Germany who require a deal would be coming to us and would no doubt accelerate the organising of trade deals in order to sell their products.

In the interim before declaring Article 50 we could, as the government are doing now, have exploratory talks with interested potential trading partners.
This might speed-up the process of arranging a deal once we leave the EU.

Then again, now that Tony Blair is shutting down his commercial interests, perhaps he is preparing himself for a crack at the EU presidency and a possible reform of the EU that allows the UK to stay a member but on better terms.

At this point in time anything is possible, even flying pigs!! LOL!!

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by ntluser

Maybe the best idea is not to go for a trade deal with the EU or use the WTO model.

If we simply left the EU and the single market, those EU countries like Germany who require a deal would be coming to us and would no doubt accelerate the organising of trade deals in order to sell their products.

Excellent plan with a couple of minor flaws that come to mind initially:

1) EU countries can't make independent trade deals.
2) WTO members can't reasonably make trade deals with non-WTO states.

Think it might be worth your checking out what the WTO actually do and why no-one has suggested the UK not bother with the WTO.

---------- Post added at 16:08 ---------- Previous post was at 16:02 ----------

I should mention on the less depressing side none of the obstacles are insurmountable, they will almost certainly just take a pretty long time.

In the interim we're at the mercy of the EU being kind enough to provide us transitional arrangements that won't have people who previously couldn't care less about politics protesting on the streets about democracy.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by ntluser

Maybe the best idea is not to go for a trade deal with the EU or use the WTO model.

If we simply left the EU and the single market, those EU countries like Germany who require a deal would be coming to us and would no doubt accelerate the organising of trade deals in order to sell their products.

In the interim before declaring Article 50 we could, as the government are doing now, have exploratory talks with interested potential trading partners.
This might speed-up the process of arranging a deal once we leave the EU.

Then again, now that Tony Blair is shutting down his commercial interests, perhaps he is preparing himself for a crack at the EU presidency and a possible reform of the EU that allows the UK to stay a member but on better terms.

At this point in time anything is possible, even flying pigs!! LOL!!

Given his track record as Peace Envoy I reckon he'd be ideally suited to joining the ranks of delusional political failures running the EU and all the more reason for us to have autonomy from it.

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

[/COLOR]I should mention on the less depressing side none of the obstacles are insurmountable, they will almost certainly just take a pretty long time.

In the interim we're at the mercy of the EU being kind enough to provide us transitional arrangements that won't have people who previously couldn't care less about politics protesting on the streets about democracy.

My god man everytime you post you make it sound as if trading outside of the EU simply cannot be done ,i'm wondering how the vast majority of the world that exists outside of the EU actually manages on a day to day basis .I think your just scared to cut the apron strings that are the EU ,don't panic ,it will be fine ,we will manage just like all the other trading outside of the EU and EEA do

[ntluser]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

Excellent plan with a couple of minor flaws that come to mind initially:

1) EU countries can't make independent trade deals.
2) WTO members can't reasonably make trade deals with non-WTO states.

Think it might be worth your checking out what the WTO actually do and why no-one has suggested the UK not bother with the WTO.

---------- Post added at 16:08 ---------- Previous post was at 16:02 ----------

I should mention on the less depressing side none of the obstacles are insurmountable, they will almost certainly just take a pretty long time.

In the interim we're at the mercy of the EU being kind enough to provide us transitional arrangements that won't have people who previously couldn't care less about politics protesting on the streets about democracy.

I was thinking about deals post Brexit. Once we leave the EU we can trade with those who wish to trade with us as we are no longer EU members. I can't see Germany and others not wanting to trade.

If we have to go with WTO membership then fair enough but we can put the spadework in via informal talks to sketch our what kind of deal countries want with us and later go into formal talks a bit more prepared, hopefully cutting the time it takes to get a deal organised.

Not sure what kind of deal the EU will give us in the interim but I think we will have to give up the single market if we want to control immigration. Not sure too if France will continue the current deal re: immigration arrangements at Calais. Strange that the EU do not want to limit migration to their countries so long as those arriving can be routed on to the UK.

It will be interesting to see what happens if and when the UK invokes Article 50 and also what happens in the German and French elections as that may have a bearing on things.

---------- Post added at 16:36 ---------- Previous post was at 16:34 ----------

Originally Posted by Osem

Given his track record as Peace Envoy I reckon he'd be ideally suited to joining the ranks of political failures running the EU and all the more reason for us to have autonomy from it.

Well, you and I know that but does he?

Politics is a funny old game and we don't always get politicans who care about ordinary people running the country.