Tivo V6 : Virgin Media V6 - Powered by TiVo(new STB)

[Jong1]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

From what I can gather, the new VM box compares very well indeed with Sky Q and the price will be competitive. I don't know why some are talking this down when they have no evidence to back up their pessimism

Honestly, nothing I have heard suggests it even comes close to the refreshed experience of Sky Q:

- Same, outdated, UI
- Yes, faster. It badly needs to be
- No mention of how "multi-room" is handled. No reference to a disc-less Mini Box.
- More tuners, but half that of Sky Q. It's not that we need to record more things at the same time, but to offer multi-room and to offer a next-gen UI. People have theorised a cloud-based DVR but I've heard nothing to suggest this is more than wishful thinking.

And that's without talking about the biggest issue for UHD - content. I guess I should avoid speculating, but I'll be surprised if they do deals for all of Sky's UHD sport and movies and don't have the original shows. They will have Netflix, I expect, but almost all with a UHD set have that via a TV app already.

Of course, we are both speculating, but I'm genuinely interested in what you have heard that lead to your comment.

[mike_gain]

Originally Posted by Jong1

Honestly, nothing I have heard suggests it even comes close to the refreshed experience of Sky Q:

- Same, outdated, UI
- Yes, faster. It badly needs to be
- No mention of how "multi-room" is handled. No reference to a disc-less Mini Box.
- More tuners, but half that of Sky Q. It's not that we need to record more things at the same time, but to offer multi-room and to offer a next-gen UI. People have theorised a cloud-based DVR but I've heard nothing to suggest this is more than wishful thinking.

And that's without talking about the biggest issue for UHD - content. I guess I should avoid speculating, but I'll be surprised if they do deals for all of Sky's UHD sport and movies and don't have the original shows. They will have Netflix, I expect, but almost all with a UHD set have that via a TV app already.

Of course, we are both speculating, but I'm genuinely interested in what you have heard that lead to your comment.

When I looked into Sky Q earlier in the year I didn't see that it was that advanced. It seems to be a really good PVR with wireless satellites but nothing that really caught my eye. One of my main put offs with Sky Q was that I got a categorical answer that automatic clash resolution wasn't a feature. As bad as the current TiVO software is this feature still works most of the time and is invaluable.

Sky have done a good job of marketing their new offering as a groundbreaking piece of technology but for many it won't offer more than they already have. In my case, anecdotal as it is, due to having two networked TiVos I already have the networked satellited, 1.5 TB of storage, 6 tuners so I can record 6 things at once and watch 2 recordings. Now that the MRS covers most channels I can watch anything recorded in pretty much either room. One advantage Sky Q has is it can stream recordings to a mobile device....this may eventually become a necessary but if I'm in my house and have time to watch something I'll be watching it on one of my TVs, that's the whole point of a PVR for me.

One of the negatives against Sky Q at the moment (and not really the fault of Sky) is their non adoption of any HDR standard. The box supposedly supports it but they are waiting for standards to be agreed before taking the plunge. If I were to invest in UHD I'd be looking for a box that can a clear and definite HDR support.

With all that said I still don't have much confidence in a Tivo powered V6 being that reliable.

[Stephen]

I don't really see that as a negative, they are waiting on a clear and confirmed standard which makes more sense than adding support and then having to change if the standard gets confirmed.

I have had Q for 2 months now and would NOT go back to TiVo at all. Its just such a classy and great system.

Even being able to stream ALL channels to the Tablet app when I go to bed is a big bonus as well as downloading recordings to the tablet for watching when I leave the house.

The clash thing isn't an issue either as there are so many tuners you'll be lucky to get any clashes at all.

[mike_gain]

Originally Posted by Stephen

I don't really see that as a negative, they are waiting on a clear and confirmed standard which makes more sense than adding support and then having to change if the standard gets confirmed.

I have had Q for 2 months now and would NOT go back to TiVo at all. Its just such a classy and great system.

Even being able to stream ALL channels to the Tablet app when I go to bed is a big bonus as well as downloading recordings to the tablet for watching when I leave the house.

The clash thing isn't an issue either as there are so many tuners you'll be lucky to get any clashes at all.

You don't have a box that supports HDR at the moment, regardless of the reasons behind it (which I agree are perfectly reasonable) it doesn't support it at the moment.

My mate works for Sky and he let me have a play with the box (which granted isn't nearly the same as using one all the time). However I'd agree it is a very good PVR, I'm just saying it's not as groundbreaking as Sky are making out (just as the Tivo wasn't as groundbreaking as VM made out). it perfectly reasonable to expect that any imminent PVR will be able to match the SKy Q offerering....although as I said one powered by the current TiVO software is unlikely to be as reliable.

For the record I still don't get the tablet thing, I've downloaded shows to my phone from Amazon for my kids when we're on holiday so maybe something in it but at the moment I'm genuinely not interested in watching anything on a small screen and not in bed....but then I regularly go to sleep listening to hardcore punk and heavy metal so maybe I'm the weird one.

[Jong1]

Originally Posted by mike_gain

When I looked into Sky Q earlier in the year I didn't see that it was that advanced. It seems to be a really good PVR with wireless satellites but nothing that really caught my eye. One of my main put offs with Sky Q was that I got a categorical answer that automatic clash resolution wasn't a feature. As bad as the current TiVO software is this feature still works most of the time and is invaluable.

Sky have done a good job of marketing their new offering as a groundbreaking piece of technology but for many it won't offer more than they already have. In my case, anecdotal as it is, due to having two networked TiVos I already have the networked satellited, 1.5 TB of storage, 6 tuners so I can record 6 things at once and watch 2 recordings. Now that the MRS covers most channels I can watch anything recorded in pretty much either room. One advantage Sky Q has is it can stream recordings to a mobile device....this may eventually become a necessary but if I'm in my house and have time to watch something I'll be watching it on one of my TVs, that's the whole point of a PVR for me.

One of the negatives against Sky Q at the moment (and not really the fault of Sky) is their non adoption of any HDR standard. The box supposedly supports it but they are waiting for standards to be agreed before taking the plunge. If I were to invest in UHD I'd be looking for a box that can a clear and definite HDR support.

With all that said I still don't have much confidence in a Tivo powered V6 being that reliable.

We've discussed before how many, once they are used to a UI, don't want to change or can't see the benefits of an updated one. People ridiculed the iPad as an oversized phone that couldn't make calls, before they got to use one.

I'm not saying that's you, but still it can be hard to appreciate the benefits from a spec sheet or a brief play. Sky Q is still in development and has some rough edges. Like you I think HDR and, ideally, BT.2020 needs to come soon. TiVo does also have some advantages - it's smart skip back after fast forward, the ability to keep a limited number of shows in a series link. Also, having to centralise all your recordings on one box doesn't work for everyone. There is considerable annoyance amongst Sky HD users that they can't move to Sky Q without giving up on a separate independent recorder/file store for the kids playroom, for example. But, I'd still say it would be very hard to demonstrate Virgin TiVo to a Sky Q user and have any chance of convincing them to switch. It would be like showing a Nokia Symbian phone from 10 years ago to an iPhone 7 user. That's a big issue going forward.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by denphone

Perhaps they are all being payed commission by the enemy OB.

Yes, I am sure there are one or two Sky agents who try to stir up alarm and despondency on this forum!

[Jong1]

Originally Posted by mike_gain

You don't have a box that supports HDR at the moment, regardless of the reasons behind it (which I agree are perfectly reasonable) it doesn't support it at the moment.

The problem is every new Sky innovation has to be applicable first and foremost to football! There is no agreed live broadcastable version of HDR at the moment and no devices that can display it, if there was.

Personally I'd prefer Sky Q to support HDR10 (well Dolby Vision would be better but I doubt that's possible for hardware reasons) for On Demand and adopt HLG, or whatever, for live broadcasts in-time, but.......LIVE FOOTBALL!!!!! What could they do???

[Horizon]

.... the BBC and Japan's NHK have adopted HLG as their HDR standard which is backwards compataible with current 4k tvs. So, as they are the two most advanced broadcasters in the world, I would assume HLG will be the HDR standard for broadcast tv.

HDR10 and Dolby Vision being the other standards, so it can't be that difficult for VM to have all three built into their new V6 right from the start.

As for SkyQ, I don't know if their boxes can be software upgraded for all three standards. Sky are very quiet on the issue, but as they're going to launch 4k footie, they must be using at least one HDR standard and as HLG is able to be used for all current 4k tvs, I think you have your answer...

[muppetman11]

Originally Posted by Horizon

.... the BBC and Japan's NHK have adopted HLG as their HDR standard which is backwards compataible with current 4k tvs. So, as they are the two most advanced broadcasters in the world, I would assume HLG will be the HDR standard for broadcast tv.

HDR10 and Dolby Vision being the other standards, so it can't be that difficult for VM to have all three built into their new V6 right from the start.

As for SkyQ, I don't know if their boxes can be software upgraded for all three standards. Sky are very quiet on the issue, but as they're going to launch 4k footie, they must be using at least one HDR standard and as HLG is able to be used for all current 4k tvs, I think you have your answer...

They have already launched UHD football and pretty good it is.

[BenMcr]

Originally Posted by Horizon

.... the BBC and Japan's NHK have adopted HLG as their HDR standard which is backwards compataible with current 4k tvs. So, as they are the two most advanced broadcasters in the world, I would assume HLG will be the HDR standard for broadcast tv.

HDR10 and Dolby Vision being the other standards, so it can't be that difficult for VM to have all three built into their new V6 right from the start.

As for SkyQ, I don't know if their boxes can be software upgraded for all three standards. Sky are very quiet on the issue, but as they're going to launch 4k footie, they must be using at least one HDR standard and as HLG is able to be used for all current 4k tvs, I think you have your answer...

By the looks of it, both options are going to be part of the DVB standard:
http://www.digitaltveurope.net/55116...ecommendation/

Wood said that the HDR TV recommendation of the ITU-R is now due on July 4. He said that the recommendation for HDR, which can be applied to 4K and 8K video, but also to existing 1080p HD TV, includes both the Perceptual Quantizer (PQ) system – recommended by Dolby – and the Hybrid Log Gamma (HLG) system, developed originally by the BBC and NHK. Wood said the ITU-R should have a recommendation on PG or HLG soon.

The ITU then seem to have decided to keep both options:
http://www.itu.int/en/mediacentre/Pages/2016-PR27.aspx

The HDR-TV Recommendation details two options for producing High Dynamic Range TV images. The Perceptual Quantization (PQ) specification achieves a very wide range of brightness levels using a transfer function that is finely tuned to match the human visual system and the Hybrid Log-Gamma (HLG) specification which offers a degree of compatibility with legacy displays by more closely matching the previously established television transfer curves. The Recommendation also outlines a simple conversion process between the two HDR-TV options.

[Jong1]

Originally Posted by muppetman11

They have already launched UHD football and pretty good it is.

No HDR though.

Yes, I'd expect HLG to be the broadcast standard and HDR10 to be the other. Dolby Vision requires Dolby licenced hardware in the box. I don't expect Sky has it, or I think they would have said. Might be wrong though. We will see about the V6.

[muppetman11]

I was looking at the US cable cos next generation boxes the other day , it would seem Comcast use a Main DVR with hard drive and then slave type boxes with no tuner or hard drive.
The system they had in place was 6 tuners which basically provided 4 for recording one for live TV on the DVR with the further tuner reserved for live TV on the slave box although people did suggest the more slaves you had what were in use the more it impacted your available recordable tuners.

Wonder if VM will adopt similar or whether it will be like the current implementation of each box is recordable with the ability to stream recordings between the two.

[Jong1]

Originally Posted by Horizon

As for SkyQ, I don't know if their boxes can be software upgraded for all three standards. Sky are very quiet on the issue, but as they're going to launch 4k footie, they must be using at least one HDR standard and as HLG is able to be used for all current 4k tvs, I think you have your answer...

I am not sure this is true. At the very least, existing HDR set makers have not said they will upgrade current sets.

What is true is that HLG can be carried with existing broadcasts and ignored by incompatible sets, without messing them up. That, of course, is very different from them supporting HLG.

---------- Post added at 12:56 ---------- Previous post was at 12:53 ----------

Originally Posted by muppetman11

The system they had in place was 6 tuners which basically provided 4 for recording one for live TV on the DVR with the further tuner reserved for live TV on the slave box

This is, if you didn't know, the Sky Q model, except with 12 tuners:

- 4 for recording
- 1 for main TV (dedicated)
- 2 for secondary discless boxes, "Minis". Also dedicated
- 2 for tablets (dedicated)
- 2 for the UI
- 1 reserved for future use

[muppetman11]

Originally Posted by Jong1

No HDR though.

Yes, I'd expect HLG to be the broadcast standard and HDR10 to be the other. Dolby Vision requires Dolby licenced hardware in the box. I don't expect Sky has it, or I think they would have said. Might be wrong though. We will see about the V6.

I never said it did I said they've already launched UHD footy , the lead on the Sky Q project said he's confident the standards for HDR will work with the current Sky Q hardware. Remember Sky is part of the UHD alliance so I'm pretty sure they know what's going on in the industry and requirements for the different standards.

[Horizon]

Originally Posted by Jong1

I am not sure this is true. At the very least, existing HDR set makers have not said they will upgrade current sets.

What is true is that HLG can be carried with existing broadcasts and ignored by incompatible sets, without messing them up. That, of course, is very different from them supporting HLG.

I agree, which is why I didn't buy a "HDR" tv this year.

When next years tvs come out, I'm looking for the "compatible with HDR BBC Iplayer shows" badge, or whatever it will be called before I hand over my cash.

---------- Post added at 13:06 ---------- Previous post was at 13:01 ----------

Originally Posted by muppetman11

I never said it did I said they've already launched UHD footy , the lead on the Sky Q project said he's confident the standards for HDR will work with the current Sky Q hardware. Remember Sky is part of the UHD alliance so I'm pretty sure they know what's going on in the industry and requirements for the different standards.

When the BBC were doing their 4k/HDR tests earlier this year they were using a transponder on the Astra satellite and I'd bet Sky were involved in that.

As Jong said, current tvs may be compatible with HLG, but its whether the tv manufacturers choose to enable the feature. Samsung were asked this directly a few months ago whether they would enable HLG on their current HDR tvs and their response was silence.... yet they tout their top of their range tvs as being fully HDR compatible.