Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by Rob

What I do want to receive is a categoric assurance from Virgin Media that, having exercised my right not to opt in, let alone opt out, there will be no passing of any of my browsing habits, in any form, to spyware companies.

However VM in my opinium will not be able to provide that as they have no idea what the full implications of this deal are. They Just see

££££

This is where it all goes to Rat Poo

Phorm's challenge is that it is simultaneously trying to persuade the two sides of the argument - the would-be advertisers and the users - of two slightly different points.

Advertisers are told that it will be able to profile the surfers, based on where they have visited, and target them through that uniquely numbered cookie. But users are told they will not be identifiable. It's the apparent contradiction in those statements that has infuriated so many.

So VM which one is it ?

And then should you stay and say NO by using the OPT OUT they can then potentially do this

But there was also one unexplored possibility about the technology, the ex-employee noted: "The [Phorm] platform clearly has some edge-of-network technologies involved. It would be entirely feasible for an ISP to allow customers to opt out - and subsequently throttle their service."

20 meg users does that ring any bells ?

[none]

the following comment can be read here - http://www.bobpiper.co.uk/2008/03/theyve_got_phorm.php

Originally Posted by Pete

Pete said:
March 5, 2008 11:57 PM | permalink

I can't believe what I'm reading.

Opt-out isn't good enough. This type of deeply intrusive 'service' should be opt-in, if it is indeed legal at all.

Webwise uses a cookie stored on the client to implement opt out (see webwise.bt.com). If you delete your cookies you are co-opted back in by default.

And the BT cookie expires silently after 24 months. So you are co-opted back in by default after 24 months.

And the Webwise UID cookie that you store is encrypted - why? If you've nothing to hide show me your cookies.

And the HTTP content that Webwise will see includes web chats using IM clients, remote desktop over http, SOAP/web services, images embedded in email, email viewed through webmail interfaces.

And if a client application doesn't or can't hold an opt out cookie, all data that originates from that client will be accessible to Webwise by default.

If you run a web site, and don't like Phorm, you can't opt out.

I've written an add on for Firefox 2 that will ensure the Phorm opt out cookie can never be deleted (accidentally or maliciously), and further randomises your UID cookie with every page load so Phorm can't monitor the browsing history of an individual user on a given IP address. But as privacy protection goes, this is a fig leaf.

Phorm should be outlawed.

http://www.planetsaturn.pwp.blueyond...phormation.xpi

so already people are trying to figure out ways of fighting of the Phorm, though as he says, "as privacy protection goes, this is a fig leaf."

still, it might be worth remembering that url for future use - http://www.planetsaturn.pwp.blueyond...phormation.xpi

Im staggered at the lengths we are going to have to go to in order to gain what should already be a given, OUR BLOODY PRIVACY!

[Mick Fisher]

Originally Posted by Rob

Why should we have to pay more just to have a spyware free service, something that the ISP is already supposed to be providing.

Those that accept this intrusion should be offered a significant incentive, or discount.

[Sirius]

I love this from another site.

http://www.bobpiper.co.uk/2008/03/theyve_got_phorm.php

To make it easy for non techie's to see what is going on here, let me explain it in the context of a system everyone knows about... the phone system.


Imagine that your TSP (Telecom Service Provider) decides to make some extra money on the side by allowing "Targeted Advertising" in the same way that these ISP's (Internet Service Provider's) are with Phorm.

So here Goes:

You make phone calls to your Wife, your Doctor and your Daughter, with the new service, "The Gold Standard in Privacy" Phrom...

What happens is this:

Each time you call, someone from Phrom taps the line and listens in, they have strict instructions to write down all that you say (except numbers with more than 3 digits (to protect against the accidental collection of social security, telephone and credit card numbers), email addresses and calls to your Bank (if you use your scrambler) and to to listen for certain key words (which they say will help them send you targeted advertisements tailored to you).

So they hear that you are talking a lot about "Top Gear" and mention "Audi" and "Bentley" so the Profiler writes down "Expensive Cars" - Not against your name but against a "Number" all the time you are on the phone talking, the profiler keeps listening and adding to the different categories about you.

They also do the same if your children make a call or your grandparents or if you call your Doctor.

Now as soon as you hang up the Profiler is supposed to destroy the the notes he took of the conversation so all the following should be destroyed:

The time of the call
The number you called.
The details of the call e.g. who you called and what you talked about.
Your Name and Number.

In return for you very kindly letting the Profiler listen in to your calls you get a SupaDuppaService from Phrom its called WebSpy and its free!

How WebSpy Works:
If the Profiler listening into your calls notices that you have called a dodgy number in Russia, which is suspected of terrible behaviour, (like bugging your phone), then the profiler will shout at you to hang up.

How Phrom Targeted Advertising Works:
From time to time the guys listening into the calls you are making will notice that you have called one of their members numbers

The member will, without you knowing, pass the Profiler a note asking what you like. Then the profiler will shout at you to buy something from this guy.

Wow what a great service that is!?

Its certainly worth giving up a little bit of privacy and having someone from Phrom listening in to all your calls isn't it?!

Notes:
"Phorm's systems collect browsing information such as URLs visited, search terms entered, OS version, relevant keywords of a particular page and randomly-generated unique Ids.

Phorm has been defending its spyware using a supposed endorsement from Privacy International. Here's a comment posted on the Register

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03...ripa/comments/

"We have been pushing for Phorm to remove this content for quite some time now. PI does not work for companies, nor do we endorse products.
Two of PI's staff members, in a private venture, advised Phorm of the serious risks that their technology raised. We are pushing for Phorm to disclose this risk assessment.
To avoid any conflict of interest, we have notified our Trustees and International Advisory Board of this activity.

The reality is that PI's accounts are so weak that we must often fund ourselves through other ventures."

[Ravenheart]

Political Penguin has updated his blog with a list of 50 questions he wants answered by the lovely Techteam from Phorm http://www.politicalpenguin.org.uk/

Considering Phorm are blatantly lying about endorsement from Privacy International, why should we believe anything they respond with.

I certainly feel that although the campaign started small it is gaining ground and seems to have Phorm and the ISP's involved running around like headless chickens.

[none]

Originally Posted by Ravenheart

Political Penguin has updated his blog with a list of 50 questions he wants answered by the lovely Techteam from Phorm http://www.politicalpenguin.org.uk/

Considering Phorm are blatantly lying about endorsement from Privacy International, why should we believe anything they respond with.

I certainly feel that although the campaign started small it is gaining ground and seems to have Phorm and the ISP's involved running around like headless chickens.

Well this whole thing broke before any of them where ready for it, clearly they haven't had time to put the full marking spin into effect before releasing webwise into the open. Now its a case of damage limitation, but the cats out of the bag and the premise behind webwise is exposed.... greed, pure and simple. Selling its customers privacy down the river for financial gain, all under the guise of security.

Webwise was always gonna be a tough sell, only now its going to be a whole lot harder!

Phight the Phorm and take back your privacy!!!

[Florence]

Virgin Media are now trying to play this down by support staff saying they don't know what we are all on about. I was told that until I received a letter from Virgin saying they are going to apply this phorm then we can get intouch.

[none]

Retentions - 0800 052 0870 seemed to be aware of Phorm when i rang them the other day.

Hardly surprising, probably had so many customers ringing up complaining that they had to brief that department, albeit just a little bit. They certainly played it right down when I spoke to them about it. 'Honest guv, you aint got nothing to worry about.'

Thing is, you just cant polish a turd, no matter how hard you try.

---------- Post added at 13:32 ---------- Previous post was at 13:09 ----------

BBC - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7280791.stm

About freakydeeky time.

Good old beeb, always the last to cover the story lol

[Florence]

This link was interesting would trust this style of advertsing as much as I trust Tiscalis TV adverts...


http://www.phorm.com/user_privacy/

Designed to trick the less experienced internet user into security..

[lucevans]

Originally Posted by none

Retentions - 0800 052 0870 seemed to be aware of Phorm when i rang them the other day.

Hardly surprising, probably had so many customers ringing up complaining that they had to brief that department, albeit just a little bit. They certainly played it right down when I spoke to them about it. 'Honest guv, you aint got nothing to worry about.'

Thing is, you just cant polish a turd, no matter how hard you try.

---------- Post added at 13:32 ---------- Previous post was at 13:09 ----------

BBC - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7280791.stm

About freakydeeky time.

Good old beeb, always the last to cover the story lol

I am not happy that the tone of this BBC article is "Phorm is pretty harmless really". I trust the BBC more than any other outlet on the web to both report the news accurately and investigate issues thoroughly, and they appear to have failed miserably on both counts here. No mention of Kent Erturgal's history in spyware, no mention of overseas servers, no mention of the fact that information will almost certainly still be gathered even if people "opt out" and a misleading headline that implies that Privacy International endorses the Phorm system, when in fact, at least in it's present form of "opt out", they expressly remain opposed to it. It's not even as if the BBC would profit from this system going ahead, because UK-resident users of their services don't get served adverts anyway, so what the hell is going on?

[dav]

Does anyone think that the Electronic Frontier Foundation might be interested in this?

They have a European arm, but I can't find any reference to Phorm on their site. It looks as if it would be right up their alley.
I know nothing about this group, they may be a bunch of chancers with even bigger tin foil hats than most, but you never know.

Phorm will be around shortly answering any questions members have - Please note forum rules still apply here. Please keep this a civil discussion. No swearing, No SHOUTING and no abusive replies. Thank you.

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by dav

Does anyone think that the Electronic Frontier Foundation might be interested in this?

They have a European arm, but I can't find any reference to Phorm on their site. It looks as if it would be right up their alley.
I know nothing about this group, they may be a bunch of chancers with even bigger tin foil hats than most, but you never know.

They are a legit organisation, formed by Mitch Kapoor, among others. If you don't know who Mitch Kapoor is, he wrote Lotus 123 (ancient spreadsheet) and created (and still runs) Mozilla.

For a brief history, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro...ier_Foundation

Also, for a detailed account of their early history, and an early action they undertook, see the freeware ebook, the hacker crackdown http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/101 (excellent read if you are interested in the subject btw).

[dav]

My question to Phorm is...

Is the option available to Virgin Media to have this system as an explicit Opt-In?
If so, does this mean that those users who do not Opt-In will not have their web traffic examined or interfered with at all by any Phorm software or hardware? If there can be an assurance that there is a way for me to do nothing and still not have Phorm examine my browsing habits, then I may calm down a bit about this issue.




EDIT: Thanks Stuart.

[tech team]

Hi All,

I'm from the tech team at phorm and wanted to point you in the direction of a couple of articles that have come out that might help to clarify some of the issues that have come up on the boards.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7280791.stm

You'll see that the beeb is also a little confused over the role Simon Davies (Director of Privacy Intl and MD of 80/20 Thinking) played in conducting our Privacy Impact Assessment which I have tried to clarify on another board, Political Penguin: http://www.politicalpenguin.org.uk/b...#comment-40910

and to be doubly doubly clear: Simon Davies as a privacy consultant conducted the PIA wearing his 80/20 hat and with his fellow colleague at the LSE.

You might be interested in the video piece on techcrunch today:
http://uk.techcrunch.com/2008/03/06/...ther-tracking/

No doubt it will raise as many questions as it answers. Mike (who started all the excellent debate in the first place) I'll drop you a line to see if you'd like to come in to see us or have a chat with our CEO or tech team.

Best wishes,
techteam (techteam@phorm.com)