Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

[Tarquin L-Smythe]

Company as big as BT that got stopped in its tracks by one astute person asking difficult questions well done Dephormation pete for showing us the way to the Achilles heel,we just have to keep on the pressure I have seen no factual proof to support Phorm Webwise for months but our challenge must grow .I have said before how hypothesising does no good what so ever except to divert peoples efforts . ask the questions ,demand the answers, and above all speak with one voice, do we want Phorm ,do we ...............

[Florence]

There is some strange activity around on invite only forums and one linking into ISPreview with a poll I had asking about the BT planned page asking for informed consent what people thought it meant if BT popped it up on thjeir screen.. Mark.J did some updatinjg and seemed to allow unregistered to vote hence pro phorm pr spoilt the poll.
Below copy of the post on ISPr.

Originally Posted by Notregistered

It was not more information that I need thank you. I was directed from an "invite only" internet security and management forum who pointed out on a thread that was discussing Webwise®

Yes my IP is proxied. I trust no one.

[thebarron]

Just a thought it might be silly - but - If Phorm is rolled out and I start browsing away and thereby produce a profile linked to MY UID then surely the profile is MY DATA and I am entitled to know what data is held on me.
It matters not that Phorm/ISP says it cannot know who I am, it is MY UID against which is MY PROFILE containing MY DATA. I should be able to check it for accuracy, be able to contest it if need be etc.
Any thoughts or should I have an early night?

Chris

Originally Posted by Tarquin L-Smythe

Hang on I thought we were going to get this stopped not talk damage limitation, or am I the only one wanting this stopped before it rolls out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I hadn't noticed anyone doing that.

Were you referring to a particular post or discussion?

It also depends on what you mean by "...getting this stopped" - do you mean Phorm, the current "arrangements" with BT/VM/CW or do you mean interception of data by ISPs or anyone else without a warrant?

There are many levels to this discussion and the Phorm tie-in is only part of them. If we fight and win against Phorm as a company the problem of DPI and spying by ISPs will remain and will resurface like a dose of herpes.

Far better to address the issues behind the headlines than to become too focussed on Phorm. They are a piddling little spyware company and seeing them off is not enough to protect anyone's privacy in the medium to long term. I don't want to have to go through all of this again and I don't think that people should have to spend the next five years running tracerts and looking at the fine-print of every contract in order to use what is basically a delivery service.

[Sambora]

Originally Posted by Florence

There is some strange activity around on invite only forums ...

Surely it cannot be much of a surprise that internet security and management forums may be "invite only" ? I am a member of one myself and you'd hardly want security discussed in public.

Why do you believe this is

strange activity

?

Originally Posted by Florence

There is some strange activity around on invite only forums and one linking into ISPreview with a poll I had asking about the BT planned page asking for informed consent what people thought it meant if BT popped it up on thjeir screen.. Mark.J did some updatinjg and seemed to allow unregistered to vote hence pro phorm pr spoilt the poll.
Below copy of the post on ISPr.

Florence - Can you provide some links so that we can see for ourselves?

Sambora - Point taken but I'm not sure where a poll about the Webwise option page fits in to a confidential security discussion. Is there any particular info you want to share with us or are you just talking about online discussions in general?

[pseudonym]

Originally Posted by Peter N

If BT et al use any income from Phorm to drop their montly fees then the other ISPs will either sign-up or go bust.

The potential income from phorming for BT was estimated to be around £85 million per year, on the original opt-out model. That is only about £20 per opted-in customer per year, less than £2 per month.

Nebuad has real data to assertain its true income and apparently produces more detailed profiling than Phorm currently proposes, including higher value data such as zip codes and IP addresses, but ISPs expect to earn as little as $2.50 per opted-in customer per month ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NebuAd ).

I dare say over the longer term if the furor dies down the income could be increased by expanding the information they collect and offering value added services - quite possibly a phorm search engine (using peoples browsing to index pages instead of bots), maybe even the shopping cart "hijack" service I suggested in an earlier post.

Certainly a lot of people always go for the cheapest deal no matter what and would go with a phorming ISP for a £2 saving per month, but an awful lot already pay a premium ISP for a better quality service. Personally I think my privacy is worth far more than £2 and these ISPs propose to sell-out their customers trust far too cheaply.

If Phorm think the revenue they generate is enough to convince the majority of ISP customers, then why haven't they rolled out webwise as a proxy service without the participation of ISPs - cut out the ISPs and pay the end-users direct?

Webwise will be advertised in such a way that the average person has no idea of the privacy inmplications and they'll be lead to believe that all internet use is risky and that this is no big deal.

This is something we will need to challenge, by spreading the word and hopefully the recently introduced Unfair Trading regulations can be used against ISPs if they try to mislead http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2008/dra...110811574_en_1

[Sambora]

Originally Posted by Peter N

Florence - Can you provide some links so that we can see for ourselves?

Sambora - Point taken but I'm not sure where a poll about the Webwise option page fits in to a confidential security discussion. Is there any particular info you want to share with us or are you just talking about online discussions in general?

I was making a point about it being inappropriate for security issues being discussed in the open. To me that is not "strange".

If I understand Florence's post, the poll was on ISPreview, and some other forum had linked to it.

I assume the quote in her post is from ISPreview.

Agreed some links would clarify.

[Florence]

Originally Posted by Peter N

Florence - Can you provide some links so that we can see for ourselves?

Sambora - Point taken but I'm not sure where a poll about the Webwise option page fits in to a confidential security discussion. Is there any particular info you want to share with us or are you just talking about online discussions in general?

Peter N it was on ISPrevire the Poll was good all thjought it was BT not a third party and none realised it was spying on clicks from the BT inform consent page released in the FOI pack.

here I can't post links to this forums the ADmin has got funny hat on at me posting links to other forums so I do all by PM now.

Originally Posted by Sambora

I was making a point about it being inappropriate for security issues being discussed in the open. To me that is not "strange".

If I understand Florence's post, the poll was on ISPreview, and some other forum had linked to it.

I assume the quote in her post is from ISPreview.

Agreed some links would clarify.

What security issues and are they related to Phorm?

It is totally strange for issues relating to lawful internet usage to be discussed by normal internet users behind closed doors so I have no idea what you are trying to say. Such matters are only ever closed-off for a good reason or if they are on a company's own intranet website.

Do you mean that there is a forum that you know of that is discussing Webwise security in general that is not transparent or are you telling us that there is closed forum that you know of that is discussing how to circumvent Phorm's security?

Another week about to start and still no sign of the BT Webwise trial.

The Downing St petition is rapidly approach the 16,000 mark. That's amazing considering how long this has been going on and it shows that this issue is not fading from people's minds despite the best efforts of Phorm and the ISPs to wait it out.

Despite the silent-running technique, Phorm is getting more coverage than ever - all of it bad - thanks to the American press. News articles regarding the DPI scandals in America frequently cover the similarities between the likes of NebuAd and Phorm. Typing Phorm into a Google News search tonight recorded over 400 hits from the past few days. This level of coverage makes it even less believable that anyone in authority or working for BT could possibly not be familiar with the issues raised.

What is good about the American coverage is that every article describes the opposition to the system and many mentioned the protest at the AGM. It's pretty sad though that the British press is still refusing to cover the story.

Expect to see Phorm's shares plummet again on their failure to deliver the trials - they may even set a new all-time low. If there are any shareholder hanging around the forum, this might be your last chance to walk away before you lose the whole lot.

[icsys]

Originally Posted by Peter N

... It's pretty sad though that the British press is still refusing to cover the story...

That's probably because 'most' of the British press are, perhaps, intending to sign up to the OIX but would rather not admit to it.

(With noted exceptions - The Guardian)

[warescouse]

Originally Posted by icsys

That's probably because 'most' of the British press are, perhaps, intending to sign up to the OIX but would rather not admit to it.

(With noted exceptions - The Guardian)

Maybe, we should all try even harder to educate them about Phorm\WebWise and the issues involved.

[AlexanderHanff]

Originally Posted by pseudonym

The potential income from phorming for BT was estimated to be around £85 million per year, on the original opt-out model. That is only about £20 per opted-in customer per year, less than £2 per month.

No it was £84M over 4 years not per year.

Just popping my head in folks, I have been keeping up with the thread. I had an email from someone at the BBC the other day asking me for some info on the next set trials, so it could be we will see more BBC coverage in the near future.

Alexander Hanff

[Digbert]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHanff

No it was £84M over 4 years not per year.


Alexander Hanff

Not according to the New York Times.

"Analysts at Investec Securities said the Open Internet Exchange could generate £85 million, or $167 million. in annual revenue for BT alone by 2009."

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/18/te...=1&oref=slogin