Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities

Originally Posted by Angua

No different from lumping everyone together who is over 6' tall & saying they are the normal hight. They can manage things just because they are tall that shorter people couldn't. Doesn't make the problems the shorter people have any less of an issue. Just needs different ways of making things compatible for the people who are not 6' tall.

Or like saying everyone is guaranteed shoes and only providing size 6. For some this will be useless, for others a bit of adjustment will do. However what ATOS are doing is trying to make everyone fit into a size 6 which is impossible as there is not enough to go round.

I like the shoe analogy..

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Maggy J

I like the shoe analogy..

What is it with women and shoes?

[Angua]

Originally Posted by Osem

What is it with women and shoes?

Shoes don't care what dress size you are

Originally Posted by Angua

No different from lumping everyone together who is over 6' tall & saying they are the normal hight. They can manage things just because they are tall that shorter people couldn't. Doesn't make the problems the shorter people have any less of an issue. Just needs different ways of making things compatible for the people who are not 6' tall.

Or like saying everyone is guaranteed shoes and only providing size 6. For some this will be useless, for others a bit of adjustment will do. However what ATOS are doing is trying to make everyone fit into a size 6 which is impossible as there is not enough to go round.

It is focussing on those in society who need help that is making them the target, whether through stupidity, ignorance or jealousy. Many of these disabled are not equipped to understand why they are being targeted or even defend themselves, yet this obsession with the sins of a few is being paid in terror by the innocent. This Cannot ever be justified.

So do you not think that given the definition of disabled is so lose these days that some people (the ignorant ,stupid,jealous ,I'll add angry to that list) find it difficult to identify disabled people and see many as malingerers or even fakers

[peanut]

Originally Posted by martyh

So do you not think that given the definition of disabled is so lose these days that some people (the ignorant ,stupid,jealous ,I'll add angry to that list) find it difficult to identify disabled people and see many as malingerers or even fakers

What is your true definition of being 'disabled'. Not a dictionary answer, but one that everyone could understand why and how you can say all you have lately on the subject.

Also, your idea of what shouldn't be classed as disabled. Only fair to ask.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Angua

Shoes don't care what dress size you are

Neither do I...



Now what about handbags?

Originally Posted by peanut

What is your true definition of being 'disabled'. Not a dictionary answer, but one that everyone could understand why and how you can say all you have lately on the subject.

Also, your idea of what shouldn't be classed as disabled. Only fair to ask.

can you define disabled? only fair to ask .
There is only one definition of disabled but there are many different levels of disability ,what we seem to be contesting within society at the moment is how much a person is disabled and how much that disability warrants no support , some level of support or total support .Good examples are people with HIV or cancer ,both are considered disabled and are protected under the disabilities and equality act ,i would not concider all cancer sufferers and all HIV sufferers as disabled some yes but not all ,the disability act however does which is wrong imo .

Now if you would be so kind as to explain what you mean by this
"why and how you can say all you have lately on the subject."

[Angua]

Originally Posted by martyh

So do you not think that given the definition of disabled is so lose these days that some people (the ignorant ,stupid,jealous ,I'll add angry to that list) find it difficult to identify disabled people and see many as malingerers or even fakers

The point being this obsession with the few who cheat the system is causing problems for the innocent, particularly those with LD. They may just look slightly different or not speak properly/at all yet they will be targetted by the mindless idiots because of the press and governments fixation on a few. Yes we all know a few who do cheat the system, but I bet you are totally unaware of those who could be out & about when you are at work, or chained to the house due to agoraphobia or be totally dependent on others. They are all needing help but are invisible most of the time.

We are all disabled in one way or another. Even something as simple as not knowing a particular language makes you unable to understand another person, creating a disability for both of you. Medical disability classifications work on the supposition there is a cure - there isn't always.

Nor is this obsession necessarily cost effective. Why for example have some people been called more than once to an ATOS medical when nothing in their condition has changed.

I just wish they would go after the tax avoiders with the same vehemence they have used on those who need help.

Originally Posted by Angua

The point being this obsession with the few who cheat the system is causing problems for the innocent, particularly those with LD. They may just look slightly different or not speak properly/at all yet they will be targetted by the mindless idiots because of the press and governments fixation on a few. Yes we all know a few who do cheat the system, but I bet you are totally unaware of those who could be out & about when you are at work, or chained to the house due to agoraphobia or be totally dependent on others. They are all needing help but are invisible most of the time.

We are all disabled in one way or another. Even something as simple as not knowing a particular language makes you unable to understand another person, creating a disability for both of you. Medical disability classifications work on the supposition there is a cure - there isn't always.

Nor is this obsession necessarily cost effective. Why for example have some people been called more than once to an ATOS medical when nothing in their condition has changed.

I just wish they would go after the tax avoiders with the same vehemence they have used on those who need help.

It's not just about benefit cheats though ,i accept that the official numbers are a small minority compared to the number of people on benefits of one kind or another .We also have to look at the number of people who qualify for disability benefits which has risen dramatically over the last decade of so .Yes a lot of people need help but realistically we can't support all disabled people and hard choices about the type and severity of disabilities have to be made .

I just wish they would go after the tax avoiders with the same vehemence they have used on those who need help

Tax avoidance is legal ,you can't go after people if they aren't breaking the law .Loopholes do need to closed but changing the laws to make something illegal that used to be legal is a bigger deal than most people think .There are a whole host of moral and ethical questions raised when something is made illegal purely to get money out of people .
Tax evasion is illegal and people involved in such practices can and do end up in jail ,but proving that they have evaded tax is sometimes very hard and can take years .To be blunt ,but practical ,if the government are going to save money then cutting down on welfare has an immediate effect cutting down on tax evasion or ,tax avoidance will take years

[Angua]

Originally Posted by martyh

It's not just about benefit cheats though ,i accept that the official numbers are a small minority compared to the number of people on benefits of one kind or another .We also have to look at the number of people who qualify for disability benefits which has risen dramatically over the last decade of so .Yes a lot of people need help but realistically we can't support all disabled people and hard choices about the type and severity of disabilities have to be made .



Tax avoidance is legal ,you can't go after people if they aren't breaking the law .Loopholes do need to closed but changing the laws to make something illegal that used to be legal is a bigger deal than most people think .There are a whole host of moral and ethical questions raised when something is made illegal purely to get money out of people .
Tax evasion is illegal and people involved in such practices can and do end up in jail ,but proving that they have evaded tax is sometimes very hard and can take years .To be blunt ,but practical ,if the government are going to save money then cutting down on welfare has an immediate effect cutting down on tax evasion or ,tax avoidance will take years

So is claiming benefits you are entitled to, yet current opinion brands you a guilty scrounger for having the nerve to claim.

More people are claiming for MH problems since the current government has come to power.

Originally Posted by Angua

So is claiming benefits you are entitled to, yet current opinion brands you a guilty scrounger for having the nerve to claim.

That's a problem that society has to sort out .I certainly don't brand all claimants as scroungers ,but i do recognize that too many people are being given benefits to the detrement of other members of society

More people are claiming for MH problems since the current government has come to power.

Kind of proves my point doesn't it .Under the current system people are getting away with claiming for anything so imo the government are doing right in changing the system

[peanut]

Originally Posted by martyh

Kind of proves my point doesn't it .Under the current system people are getting away with claiming for anything so imo the government are doing right in changing the system

Which pretty much sums up it up for me to clearly say that you haven't got a clue, it's just black and white to you. I don't see much point in saying too much as you have a clear opinion on a subject you that haven't got the foggiest idea to what is really happening and how it will affect real people. But as long as you're okay, I'm sure you'll have a lot to say on the subject.

Originally Posted by peanut

Which pretty much sums up it up for me to clearly say that you haven't got a clue, it's just black and white to you. I don't see much point in saying too much as you have a clear opinion on a subject you that haven't got the foggiest idea to what is really happening and how it will affect real people. But as long as you're okay, I'm sure you'll have a lot to say on the subject.

Quite clearly you think that every claimant is justified and every claimant should be given money and support which what is so wrong with the system .Not all disabled need support ,that is a fact whether you like it or not .

[Angua]

Originally Posted by martyh

That's a problem that society has to sort out .I certainly don't brand all claimants as scroungers ,but i do recognize that too many people are being given benefits to the detrement of other members of society




Kind of proves my point doesn't it .Under the current system people are getting away with claiming for anything so imo the government are doing right in changing the system

No! Under the current system NEW claims are being put in for MH issues, ironically the hardest to prove to the ATOS people. So under this government MORE people are being afflicted with MH problems. How does this prove the system is achieving its aim?

I know someone who should be claiming and desperately needs the help but pride and the hoops you have to jump through is preventing him trying any more.

Originally Posted by Angua

No! Under the current system NEW claims are being put in for MH issues, ironically the hardest to prove to the ATOS people. So under this government MORE people are being afflicted with MH problems. How does this prove the system is achieving its aim?

I know someone who should be claiming and desperately needs the help but pride and the hoops you have to jump through is preventing him trying any more.

So what your saying is basically that over the last decade or so there has been an epidemic of mental health issues .Why all of a sudden are so many people being classed as disabled either physical or mental ?Why are more people claiming disability benefits of some kind than are claiming unemployment benefit ?

have a read of this it's a good article imo .

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/br...nefits-debate/