Hamas Israel War - Page 62

jfman · 27-11-2023, 20:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre

A single Israeli state is the only way it ends.

There isn’t a “both” countries. There is only one country in that location. That country is Israel.

Palestine has never existed as a state.

Sounds a bit genocidey to me, tbh.

1andrew1 · 27-11-2023, 20:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre

So let’s say there was an official Palestinian state either side of Israel formed from Gaza and the West Bank, and that Palestinian state elected an extreme Islamic jihadist party to govern them.

Then, that legitimate Palestinian state declared war on Israel, and undertook a military incursion into Israel killing thousands of Jews.

How is that any different to now.

If, in that theoretical scenario, Israel retaliated against that legitimate Palestinian state and flattened it, would you, Ian and JFman still condemn Israel for defending itself?

Giving Palestinians a state, would not give Israelis peace…..from the river to the sea negates the existence of Israel. Giving Palestinians a state wouldn’t change anything.

Most countries don't elect extremist political parties to govern them. Giving Palestinians a prosperous and economically successful country is the best guarantee of peace in the region. The more you have, the more you have to lose in the event of war.

The river to the sea is the wish of extremists in Israel and Palestine. It is not the wish of most people in those countries.

Pierre · 27-11-2023, 20:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfman

The difference would be that Palestinians would genuinely be complicit in bringing around a state of war (if this hypothetical Palestine declared war on Israel). As it stands it hasn’t, and there isn’t one.

Sorry, I though Gazans elected a Hamas government and have kept them there.

Quote:

Terrorists carried out an act and Palestinian civilians are paying the price of the retaliation.

There’s no evidence Palestinians would vote for such a war, although nobody could rule out Israeli interference just as they were complicit in Hamas governance of Gaza until it bit them in the arse.

Gazan state sponsored terrorists carried out the attack, which was roundly celebrated by Gazans.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by jfman

Sounds a bit genocidey to me, tbh.

Not at all

1andrew1 · 27-11-2023, 21:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre

A single Israeli state is the only way it ends.

There isn’t a “both” countries. There is only one country in that location. That country is Israel.

Palestine has never existed as a state.

Your urge to post speedily outweighs your ability to be correct.
139 countries recognise the State of Palestine as a state.

Pierre · 27-11-2023, 21:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Most countries don't elect extremist political parties to govern them.

Gazans did. Iranians did. Afghanis did. Somalis did…..tbf some of them may not have been elected but they took over unopposed.

Quote:

Giving Palestinians a prosperous and economically successful country is the best guarantee of peace in the region.

you don’t get given that, you have to work and create that. Gaza could have been the Dubai or the Abu Dhabi of the region but it isn’t

Quote:

The river to the sea is the wish of extremists in Israel and Palestine. It is not the wish of most people in those countries.

I wouldn’t know as I haven’t canvassed anyone, but I doubt that view to be accurate.

1andrew1 · 27-11-2023, 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre

Sorry, I though Gazans elected a Hamas government and have kept them there.

How have they kept them there? There have been no elections since Hamas seized in power in 2007.

Pierre · 27-11-2023, 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Your urge to post speedily outweighs your ability to be correct.
139 countries recognise the State of Palestine as a state.

I’m fully aware of that. It really only applies to Gaza, which actually backs up my point.

I’d appreciate it if you answered my previous post regarding your proposition of the two station solution though

jfman · 27-11-2023, 21:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre

Sorry, I thought Gazans elected a Hamas government and have kept them there.

You’re not suggesting that Palestinians… take up armed struggle?

Pierre · 27-11-2023, 21:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

How have they kept them there? There have been no elections since Hamas seized in power in 2007.

Sorry, I must have missed all the anti-Hamas marches they’ve had in Gaza.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by jfman

You’re not suggesting that Palestinians… take up armed struggle?

Any protest would do.

Civil wars break out all the time.

But my point is beyond that. Andrew suggesting a two state solution would be the answer is bollocks.

If Gaza was part of a Palestinian state, what would be different? Nothing.

jfman · 27-11-2023, 21:55

Plenty of people consider the two state solution as better than “bollocks”. However the one state solution - “from the river to the sea” as they say - is equally as uncomfortable a proposition under an Israeli flag as a Palestinian one.

Pierre · 27-11-2023, 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfman

Plenty of people consider the two state solution as better than “bollocks”.

But it’s no different to what there was/ is now in regards to Gaza.

If Gaza was part of a legitimate Palestinian state, why would that presuppose peace?

Quote:

However the one state solution - “from the river to the sea” as they say - is equally as uncomfortable a proposition under an Israeli flag as a Palestinian one.

True, but with an Israeli state with Palestinian citizens, the Palestinian citizens would all be free to live as they wish within the law.

With a Palestinian state all the jews would be slaughtered.

It’s a small but important point.

1andrew1 · 27-11-2023, 22:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre

Sorry, I must have missed all the anti-Hamas marches they’ve had in Gaza.

Sorry Pierre, I forgot you travel to Gaza quite a lot.

Pierre · 27-11-2023, 22:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Sorry Pierre, I forgot you travel to Gaza quite a lot.

Oh! Sorry, so there have been anti-Hamas marches in Gaza? Thanks Andrew, do you have any details?

jfman · 27-11-2023, 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre

But it’s no different to what there was/ is now in regards to Gaza.

If Gaza was part of a legitimate Palestinian state, why would that presuppose peace?

True, but with an Israeli state with Palestinian citizens, the Palestinian citizens would all be free to live as they wish within the law.

Or die as second class citizens, having their property belongings seized by Israelis, as currently seen in settlements.

Quote:

With a Palestinian state all the jews would be slaughtered.

It’s a small but important point.[/QUOTE]

Not to the dead Palestinians it isn’t.

1andrew1 · 27-11-2023, 22:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre

But it’s no different to what there was/ is now in regards to Gaza.

There's so much wrong with this statement I don't know where to begin! How can the Gaza enjoy any economic regeneration when people, food,and goods can't easily leave and enter the country?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre

If Gaza was part of a legitimate Palestinian state, why would that presuppose peace?

Why would that pre-suppose war?

You seem to want to condemn Palestine to some kind of sub-civilised existence whilst permitting full nation rights to Israel despite its giving the OK to settlers to attack Palestinians in the West Bank and seize their property.