Child grooming gang found guilty

Originally Posted by Russ

Again, Watkins and co were not local, they met 'long distance'.


The Catholic one can be answered fairly easily - the overwhelming majority of priests in the UK and Ireland are white. By sheers numbers any involved in sexual abuse are highly likely to be white.

But anyone can get a group of friends or like-minded people together from their street, neighbourhood or town. Again, unless there is a large-scale conspiracy going on they always seem to be Asian and non-white. Street sex gangs are no better or worse than any sex offenders really so I'm not going to suggest these gangs are committing worse crimes.

But there is a common denominator in all these instances. White Brits could be part of any internet, Catholic, music band gang. But they are never part of any of these gangs we hear about in court.

---------- Post added at 21:21 ---------- Previous post was at 21:19 ----------



How many Asians do you think were employed by the BBC during the 60s and 70s as presenters?

Right so any example I give is flawed because the majority of people are white. So you'll only accept an example where there majority is not white and, giving the UK is mostly white, that leaves me with little to work with.

Examples where they met over the Internet doesn't count. Examples where the majority of people are white doesn't count.

You're basically narrowing down every example until I am left only with the Asian community, which I have already conceded seems to have a different problem which needs to be looked into.

[Escapee]

Originally Posted by Damien

No but I don't have any statistics on me. I am not going to base it on Googling news articles to see how many hits I get. However there are other examples of white people going to court. Ian Watkins was going to trial alongside two women, they had conspired to abuse children. There have been a few similar cases to that as well from what I can recall but I don't want to put those terms into Google.

Anyway that isn't countering my point. I agree that these gangs exist and there is something about their method of working that seems unique to those abusers who come from an Asian background. It should be looked into and I don't know why it exists. However I do not agree that the idea of a group of people conspiring to commit acts of child abuse is one that is mostly seen in the Asian community. I just believe these groups act differently. From Internet rings, to the care homes, to the catholic church.

---------- Post added at 20:16 ---------- Previous post was at 20:08 ----------



See that last bit is the concern I have other this topic. It's essentially saying Asians are more likely to commit child abuse which is a pretty presumptive conclusion when the issue still hasn't been looked at. You could say the same about the BBC, look at all the former stars in court for sexual offences of one sort or the other. Look at the scandal in the Catholic Church or care homes as well.

You can't draw conclusions based on that kind of information. It can distort the true picture. These communities are large and it's dangerous to extrapolate broad conclusions about them from news stories which are more than likely representative of the outliers and little else.

I'm not scared to Google for the facts, the striking thing is these are quite large gangs in small geographic areas.

Rochdale gang: 12 accused and 9 convicted, 8 were British Pakistani and the 9th

was an Afghan asylum seeker.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rochdale_sex_trafficking_gang

To quote the source:

Mohammed Shafiq, chief executive of the Ramadhan Foundation, accused elders of

the Pakistani community of "burying their heads in the sand" on the matter of

sexual grooming. He said that of 68 recent convictions involving child sexual

exploitation, 59 were of British Pakistani men and it was a significant problem

for that community.

Following the break up of the first sex ring, in May 2012 the police made arrests in relation to an earlier child sexual exploitation ring in Rochdale. Nine men between 24 and 38-years-old were arrested on suspicion of sexual activity with a child.[19] About a dozen more cases involving Asian Muslims in Northern England are under investigation.[20] A 2012 report by the Deputy children's commissioner said that 33% of child sex abuse by gangs in Britain was committed by Asians, where Asians are 7% of the population, but concluded that it was "irresponsible" to dwell on the data.

Derby gang: 13 accused and 9 convicted, 75 offences relating to 26 girls

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derby_sex_gang

To quote the source:

Former home secretary, Jack Straw, said that though there were many white sex

offenders, there was a "specific problem" in some areas of Pakistani men

targeting "vulnerable white girls", whom they perceived as "easy meat" for sexual

abuse. He urged the Pakistani community to be "more open" about the abuse.[8]

Former MP and women's campaigner, Ann Cryer, endorsed Straw's comments saying

there was a problem that Muslim MPs were not prepared to confront; that there was

a minority of young Asian males that did do not "behave properly towards white

women."[7] Atma Singh, from the Sikh Community Action Network, praised Straw for

being "honest" about the "pockets of youngsters in the Pakistani Muslim community

who treat girls from other communities as 'sexual objects'."[4] Children's

minister, Tim Loughton, warned that "closed" Asian communities, "political

correctness and racial sensitivities" had affected investigations into child sex

grooming by Asian gangs.

Rotherham gang: 5 Pakistani men

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_sex_gang



Oxford gang: 7 accused and found guilty, 5 Pakistani and 2 North African targetting 11-15yr olds

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_sex_gang


Telford gang: 7 accused and found guilty all Pakistani.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telford_sex_gang

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Damien

Right so any example I give is flawed because the majority of people are white. So you'll only accept an example where there majority is not white and, giving the UK is mostly white, that leaves me with little to work with.

Examples where they met over the Internet doesn't count. Examples where the majority of people are white doesn't count.

You're basically narrowing down every example until I am left only with the Asian community, which I have already conceded seems to have a different problem which needs to be looked into.

You've missed the point entirely.

For the sake of figures, let's say in any section of society, 20% of men are sex offenders regardless of race or nationality.

Take Oxford Street in London. That would mean 20% of the men there (again I stress, hypothetically) are sex offenders. As it's a busy London street that percentage is likely to be made up of all different colours and races.

Take the Catholic church. Due to the very large number of white British or Irish men who are priests, that 20% is going to be almost universally white.

The BBC during the 60s and 70s. If you weren't white and middle class then it would be very unlikely you'd get in as a presenter. Therefore that 20% again would probably be all white.

These sex gangs I refer to as Asian. They may be from cities with large Asian populations (Rochdale, Bradford etc) however they are not exclusive. And if you pardon the expression a pervert is a pervert regardless of colour.

Yet we have yet to see any white Brits in these gangs.

Originally Posted by Russ

You've missed the point entirely.

For the sake of figures, let's say in any section of society, 20% of men are sex offenders regardless of race or nationality.

Take Oxford Street in London. That would mean 20% of the men there (again I stress, hypothetically) are sex offenders. As it's a busy London street that percentage is likely to be made up of all different colours and races.

Take the Catholic church. Due to the very large number of white British or Irish men who are priests, that 20% is going to be almost universally white.

The BBC during the 60s and 70s. If you weren't white and middle class then it would be very unlikely you'd get in as a presenter. Therefore that 20% again would probably be all white.

These sex gangs I refer to as Asian. They may be from cities with large Asian populations (Rochdale, Bradford etc) however they are not exclusive. And if you pardon the expression a pervert is a pervert regardless of colour.

Yet we have yet to see any white Brits in these gangs.

I still don't see the contradiction here. White people can still formed these groups or used them to hide their crimes.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Damien

I still don't see the contradiction here. White people can still formed these groups or used them to hide their crimes.

Yet we do not hear of any of these street gangs getting to court.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Damien

I still don't see the contradiction here. White people can still formed these groups or used them to hide their crimes.

I'm sure there are/ were. All white British paedophile rings.

Either they're very good at not being caught, or they've retired.

Network,ring,gang..I think some of you are just using semantics to try and make out that white people aren't the same as Asians and yet the crime is just the same..

[Gary L]

Originally Posted by Maggy J

Network,ring,gang..I think some of you are just using semantics to try and make out that white people aren't the same as Asians and yet the crime is just the same..

I'm sure Russ isn't saying that.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Maggy J

Network,ring,gang..I think some of you are just using semantics to try and make out that white people aren't the same as Asians and yet the crime is just the same..

I'm pointing out that these street gangs are almost always 100% Asian and there isn't a clear reason why that in any of the cases reported in the media none of them contain any white Brits.

[Osem]

We all know that people of all races and religions are capable of all sorts of crimes and that circumstances, opportunity etc. play a big part in that. The point here is that a very high proportion of those involved in this type of crime come from a certain community and it seems to me to be reasonable to try to establish the extent to which cultural differences, prejudices etc. have played a role in this. If they have played a significant role then we at least have a chance to do something about changing attitudes/behaviour rather than simply reacting to events. This is what operation Trident is all about isn't it? Initially it focussed on trying to get to the bottom of black on black gang crime to understand the mindset of those involved and try to stop it happening. Now it's been accepted that this form of activity has extended into and between other communities, the remit of Trident has been broadened to take this into account. This, I believe, is what should happen in the case of gang based abuse and exploitation and only when the problem is acknowledged and understood will we be able to do something about it.

Originally Posted by Russ

I'm pointing out that these street gangs are almost always 100% Asian and there isn't a clear reason why that in any of the cases reported in the media none of them contain any white Brits.

I think the point is that different 'groups' go about their exploitation in different ways as Damien has pointed out.My point being is that the crime is the same which ever way these 'groups' go about abusing their victims and that ALL the differing method need looking into.Just concentrating on one particular 'grouping' would be a mistake.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Russ

I can't believe anyone would ask such a question - yes it does.

If sex gangs were made up of people from all races then you'd be absolutely right. But in each and every case like these, the vast majority of the gang members are Asian, and those that aren't are not white British. Not a hit and miss thing, but every time.

There is something going on here. There's no way it's a coincidence. I'm not saying I have the answers but I cannot believe the authorities keep ignoring the elephant in the room.

Isn't it Pakistan where there's a gang rape every eight hours and it's not really a surprise it's migrated here when you have perverted courts decreeing women should be raped by thirteen men as punishment, guess which men had to perform the task as well

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...unishment.html

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by Maggy J

I think the point is that different 'groups' go about their exploitation in different ways as Damien has pointed out.My point being is that the crime is the same which ever way these 'groups' go about abusing their victims and that ALL the differing method need looking into.Just concentrating on one particular 'grouping' would be a mistake.

The crime is NOT always the same. The disturbing(and sinister?) pattern with these "Asian" gangs, it that it isn't just for personal sexual gratification or to make money. The treatment of the victims goes way beyond that, with alcohol and drugs, violence, and passing them around to others. Those "others" tend not to be caught and included in the conviction figures. Perpetrators from that "group" are under-reported in any figures.

Some statistics here - FullFact

Are Asians disproportionately represented in prosecutions for sex offences?....

......However while just under 82 per cent of inmates incarcerated for sex offences in 2007 were classified as white, this was actually lower than the overall proportion of the population that were similarly classed, which stands at 87.5 per cent (for England). At six per cent, the proportion of sex offenders in custody that were classed as Asian almost exactly matches the proportion of the population classed similarly.

Looking at grooming offences collected by the CEOP, while the white ethnic group makes up the largest proprotion of all offenders, it is far below the proportion of white people in the general population. Meanwhile, those of Asian origin are indeed disproportionately represented here.

Update (10/5/2012): The Ministry of Justice has provided us with more up-to-date figures on the sentencing for sex offences by ethnicity. These cover all sex offences sentenced at either crown or magistrates' courts in 2010, and show similar figures to the 2007: around 78 per cent of offenders were white, while 8 per cent were Asian (full data here).

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Some statistics here - FullFact

Interesting, but I don't think anyone has suggested there are more Asian sex offenders.