Unstoppable migration?

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by Chris

WW2 was overwhelmingly fought on identifiable battlefronts between opposing, uniformed, disciplined armies. Syria is an asymmetric war and there are at least three or four major factions, many of them not in uniform, not in any way disciplined and, in the case of ISIS, rather fond of brutalising civilians. I would be very careful about trying to apply the situation in Europe in 1945 to Syria in 2015.

I doubt either side has the numbers to deal with that widespread a battle. The front lines are where any fighting is going to happen. Why not stay behind and outnumber ISIS?

It is a general principle that any conflict will not be happening throughout a whole country and there will be safe places to be somewhere in that country.

Originally Posted by Osem

This really is only the start of a huge problem. For those who manage to get to where they want to be it's great and many of them deserve our help and support but for there's millions left behind, the vast majority of whom will have reasons for wanting to come to the EU which are entirely understandable but don't amount to refugee status.

What's needed is a serious plan to cope with refugees closer to home and some of our generous aid budget should be allocated to doing that. What's also needed is a credible system to define and separate refugees from economic migrants in order to stem the flow of the latter.

The deaths of men, women and children won't stop because the EU takes a 1,000, a 100,000 or 1,000,000 Syrians because the world is full of poor, desperate people and they too will feel they have a right to come here too. They'll see what's going on, they'll see large numbers of people getting through and they too will decide to take their chances. Unless we do something about that they will come in ever increasing numbers. and we have to have a plan for dealing with them. That is undeniable and I have yet to hear the likes of Merkel and Junker explain what they propose we do. They haven't because they've got no idea what to do and that just about sums up the EU for me.

So what is your definition of a refugee? Or are you thinking of migrants?Even the BBC seems to be referring to refugees as migrants..

[ianch99]

So it takes a picture of a dead child to shame Cameron into taking action:

David Cameron: UK to accept 'thousands' more Syrian refugees

"World Leader"? I think not ..

Originally Posted by ianch99

So it takes a picture of a dead child to shame Cameron into taking action:

David Cameron: UK to accept 'thousands' more Syrian refugees

"World Leader"? I think not ..

No - it takes a picture of a dead child to shame the public into demanding action.

We live in an age of triangulation. Our senior politicians follow public opinion. They rarely attempt to lead it. Here in Scotland, Sturgeon has shown herself the worst of the lot, jumping, moist-eyed, right on the bandwagon of that public opinion and using it as yet another opportunity for her favourite pastime (it's called "bash the evil Toe-reyyys and hope nobody notices what a mess we're making")

We need to take a long, hard, collective look in the mirror, and stop pointing the finger. This has been going on for many months. It has led the news, on and off, for many months. We *all* knew what was happening. Yet only this week is my Facebook feed overloaded with hand-wringing petitions on Change.org.

We get the government we deserve.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Maggy J

So what is your definition of a refugee? Or are you thinking of migrants?Even the BBC seems to be referring to refugees as migrants..

Migrants is a general term. I separate the economic migrants from those genuinely fleeing conflict whom I would refer to as refugees. In practice that isn't easy however because anyone can claim to be fleeing conflict, persecution etc. and plenty of economic migrants do exactly that. Some of them are refused asylum if/when they get around to claiming it, others successfully obtain asylum under false pretences. We have no idea exactly how many.

I also realise that the really vulnerable (i.e. those with little or no money) are the least able to get to places like Greece, Italy, Turkey and Hungary. Nobody seems to be worrying too much about their plight right now, how many little boys and girls are dying and not featured in the media? Therein lies the problem the EU faces and has ducked for quite some years now, despite the evidence before their eyes that things were steadily getting worse.

At some point we're going to have to come up with the means and the political will to separate genuine refugees from economic migrants. Furthermore we're going to need to accept that we can't take in everyone deserving of our help. That's not a nice thought but it's reality I'm afraid.

---------- Post added at 13:36 ---------- Previous post was at 13:02 ----------

Originally Posted by Chris

No - it takes a picture of a dead child to shame the public into demanding action.

We live in an age of triangulation. Our senior politicians follow public opinion. They rarely attempt to lead it. Here in Scotland, Sturgeon has shown herself the worst of the lot, jumping, moist-eyed, right on the bandwagon of that public opinion and using it as yet another opportunity for her favourite pastime (it's called "bash the evil Toe-reyyys and hope nobody notices what a mess we're making")

We need to take a long, hard, collective look in the mirror, and stop pointing the finger. This has been going on for many months. It has led the news, on and off, for many months. We *all* knew what was happening. Yet only this week is my Facebook feed overloaded with hand-wringing petitions on Change.org.

We get the government we deserve.

It's called jumping on the bandwagon. Not that long ago it was ISIS murders which were the media was fixated upon, now it's migrants. People are still being burned, shot, buried alive, drowned, thrown off buildings, hanged, beheaded etc. but they're no longer newsworthy and nobody's raising petitions about their plight. Who raised a petition about the girl (and all those like her) who was murdered on camera and the subject of a recent thread here? Where were the politicians condemning that? Where was the national 'sympathy' we're currently seeing?

I reckon in the not too distant future most of those who've signed petitions and said how awful it all is will be more concerned about preparing for Christmas than the plight of migrants. Years ago it happened with the Biafran famine and it's been going on ever since. Outpourings such as this make people feel less guilty and it gives opportunistic politicians a stick to beat their opponents with until the next one comes along. Very few people will actually do something about the problem despite the fact that they could afford to give donations direct to those organisations currently dealing with this mess on the ground. Signing a petition's so much easier than signing a cheque...

[nomadking]

They moved initially to Egypt and then on to Libya, where she says she met a man who said he could organise travel to Europe.

"There was bombing, kidnapping, killing," she tells the BBC. "That's why I had to leave."

In Egypt and Libya? With Lebanon and/or Israel in between Syria and Egypt.

Hayan, another refugee who travelled to the UK to escape the conflict in Syria, spoke to the BBC's Lucy Manning on the condition that only his and his wife's first names are used, as he has relatives who are still living in Syria.

So it's not that unsafe there.

Six months later he was joined by his wife and two young children.

It was safe for them during that time.

They died supposedly fleeing the dangers in Kobane. Guess where father has gone back to bury them.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Chris

No - it takes a picture of a dead child to shame the public into demanding action.

We live in an age of triangulation. Our senior politicians follow public opinion. They rarely attempt to lead it. Here in Scotland, Sturgeon has shown herself the worst of the lot, jumping, moist-eyed, right on the bandwagon of that public opinion and using it as yet another opportunity for her favourite pastime (it's called "bash the evil Toe-reyyys and hope nobody notices what a mess we're making")

We need to take a long, hard, collective look in the mirror, and stop pointing the finger. This has been going on for many months. It has led the news, on and off, for many months. We *all* knew what was happening. Yet only this week is my Facebook feed overloaded with hand-wringing petitions on Change.org.

We get the government we deserve.

You would like to think we elect people to lead a government. You are saying we just elect sheep .. sad times

[Osem]

If 'safety' is the reason for granting people refugee status, a good proportion of the world's population will qualify. Plenty of people here don't feel safe and plenty of people here aren't having their needs acceded to. Plenty of people here are suffering in one way or another, being destitute, helpless and even being left to suffer/die because they're told the drugs needed to help them are too expensive for the NHS to provide. Where's the media coverage, national sympathy and petitions for them? This awful stuff overseas has been going on for decades and I believe that in a lot of cases, this response is more about making people feel less guilty than anything else.

[Arthurgray50@blu]

I feel that this 'sympathy' scenario is now coming out from various sources and that various people - ie Bob Geldof has offered his house and flat to accommodate some refugee's.
And that DC has offered more help in bringing some to the UK.

We have to look at this two ways, such as a comment made on this forum. In the UK alone TODAY, there are people that are HOMELESS and destitute. And need severe help and many homeless people live at Cardboard City in London.

And now since this poor child drowned along with his mum and brother. We have people offering there homes to help them

We have many building in London that are empty, why doesn't DC offer them shelter there.

This problem has been going on for over a year, yet, DC went on holiday, when it was starting to become a crisis.

Why does it have to be a poor child, bring everything to the forefront and start the usual UK - we will come to the rescue again, and again.

I really feel sad for the refuges, but there comes a time when we have to say enough is enough. We are a small island in the middle of a pond.

If the British Government can look after thousands of migrants, why cant it look after its own people as well

[Ignitionnet]

While I disagree with much of the post above it highlights the impact that the millions of economic migrants have had over the past decade. It seems a lot of people in the UK are jaded and weary of immigration to the point where it impacts on their views of those in desperate need.

It's a disaster but not that surprising. Politicians in the last decade were wilfully engineering the nation, politicians in this decade and that one are far more Europhile than the populous as that's what their donors tell them to think.

Really unfortunate set of circumstances that we are having to be harsh with those who are refugees to dissuade economic migrants riding on their coat tails.

[Osem]

What about all the non Syrians I'm wondering - people from Pakistan, Bangladesh, Afghanistan, Iraq, Nigeria, Cameroon, Chad, Niger, Eritrea, Somalia, Liberia, Yemen, Sudan, Libya, Egypt, Congo, Ethiopia to name but a few?...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34114597

Surely they deserve refuge too because they're unsafe and desperate for a better life in Europe.

[Tezcatlipoca]

Vox - Nothing captures Western hypocrisy on refugees like these British tabloid front pages





New Statesman - From "cockroaches" to campaigns: how the UK press u-turned on the refugee crisis




Etc. etc. ...

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by nomadking

In Egypt and Libya? With Lebanon and/or Israel in between Syria and Egypt.

So it's not that unsafe there.

It was safe for them during that time.

They died supposedly fleeing the dangers in Kobane. Guess where father has gone back to bury them.

I don't think it can be denied with credibility that these people are in a desperate situation.

This is a very grave problem and the politicians need to discuss this tragedy intelligently.

It was a good move of David Cameron to suggest that we would take people from the refugee camps rather than from the migrants walking through Europe. That might encourage people to seek refuge at properly organised camps nearer home while we try to work out the best way of absorbing them all. The situation in Europe is out of control and getting worse.

[Arthurgray50@blu]

There has been a report - l cannot find the link - tonight that FOUR people have been arrested over neglect of the young child that drowned

I understand that a report was in the Daily Mirror. BUT, l cannot find the link. If this is true, it certainly opens up a can of worms as to what happened

[Osem]

It is and we need to encourage people to do things by the rules and not effectively encourage people to break the rules as they see fit which not only results in abuse of the system but also encourages people to risk their lives in order to be taken seriously. In any other set of circumstances what the EU has been allowing to happen would be deemed totally irresponsible and hats off to the Hungarians for telling it as they see it whether we find their message entirely palatable or not.