Unstoppable migration?

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by Osem

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-33907741

'English mafia' engaged in trafficking migrants:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33909698

Well it's not exactly a surprise that ******* criminals from this side of the water might be profiting from this misery. Still, I'd quite like to know who these 'English Mafia' are.

"English" as in based in England.

The revelation was seized on by critics of French law enforcement officials, who have repeatedly said the problem is caused by gangs based in the UK.

The businessman was reportedly arrested on Tuesday and is the seventh person to be arrested in the region as part of a major crackdown on an Albanian gang who hide migrants in lorries before ferrying them across the border

From 2000, BEFORE Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria and Libya

In his second special report from the southern Adriatic, the BBC's Brian Barron investigates how Albanian gangsters are profiting from human trafficking One of Italy's top anti-Mafia magistrates says Albanian gangsters are taking control of organised crime on both sides of the Adriatic.
The most lucrative commodities are illegal immigrants.

...
Several million are believed to be in Italy, Greece, Spain, Portugal and Germany.

Not exactly a new problem.

From 2014.

But Jean-Claude Larue, who works in Calais for the charity Secours Populaire, said that the migrants don’t necessarily want to stay in France. “The Albanian people smugglers lie to the African migrants and tell them that they can work in the UK which they describe as El Dorado.” Mr Larue told The Independent that the gangmasters were demanding between €2,000 to €3,000 from the migrants.
...
The report also said that 61,591 migrants arrived in Italy during the same period, up from 7,913 in the first six months of last year. Eritreans make up one third of the migrants, the report said, while Syrians totalled 17 per cent.

[Osem]

Yes, I got the 'English' bit thanks. No Scots, Irish, Welsh amongst them then, not to mention all the other nationals who choose to live in the UK (not just England) then?

I'd still rather like to know who they are and whether they have any particular links to the migrants they're assisting or whether they're just **** exploiting a situation.

I was listing to a Hungarian journalist earlier who's spent a lot of time travelling with and interviewing migrants travelling via Serbia and elsewhere. He commented on how there are social media networks set up to help migrants exploit the system and advise them on where to go etc. Now of course this sort of thing is to be expected and is understandable but I do think we need to get to grips with the fact that this is being orchestrated on various levels and the days of small numbers of migrants taking their chances with no idea where they're heading are well and truly over.

Of course we are not yet seeing the huge numbers here but as they are processed and allowed to leave places like Greece, so they will head off to their destinations of choice which will include the UK via Calais. Not only that, but if/when the processing is speeded up, more will be tempted to follow knowing that their journey will be that little bit easier.

This is a European problem and indeed a global issue but if the likes of the EU can't get to grips with it I'd rather like our government to do so sooner rather than later because this is going to mushroom out of control if some order isn't imposed.

[Gavin78]

The thing is what do we do with all these people who are homeless mostly due to ISIS.

Nobody wants them and I'm sure given the choice they wouldn't be wanting the UK as a whole if they had their own countries back.

The EU needs to look at the bigger picture they need to stop these countries from taking over over countries.

We are no longer in the dark ages where the likes of the Romans ruled the lands taking over countries. The EU is all for picking on countries like Greece but not dealing with the likes of ISIS.

There seems to be a blind eye to all this it wouldn't surprise me if the EU are in talks with the leaders of ISIS and so forth and some deal has been struck in some way because if they really wanted to deal with it like the USA did with saddam and so forth they would

[Taf]

I am still of the opinion that if your country is under attack and you are able-bodied, you should stay in your country and fight for it.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Osem

Yes, I got the 'English' bit thanks. No Scots, Irish, Welsh amongst them then, not to mention all the other nationals who choose to live in the UK (not just England) then?

I'm guessing that's because the majority of migrants stay in England? Illegal immigration is unlikely to be much of a problem to us Celts so we tend to keep out of it.

[Osem]

Illegal immigration is clearly a problem for some people and a money spinner for others and it certainly isn't something exclusive to one nation or another. IMHO amongst all those 'English' people smugglers, there'll be a variety of people doing it for a variety of reasons - some purely for money and some who'll be trying to assist people from their own communities. I'd wager that a good many migrants who've come through Calais wind up across the UK although the majority are bound to be in England.

[Osem]

Well the new master 'plan' seems to involve flying some of those holed up in Calais back home so that their asylum claims can be processed there. There was I thinking that these people were all escaping certain torture or death back home. Maybe things aren't so bad back there after all then or we'll allow people who've abused the system (by failing to claim asylum elsewhere) to go back home and then come back officially in spite of the facts. This is nonsense isn't it? Which economic migrant is going to go back home knowing that being an economic migrant isn't grounds for asylum? Which genuine refugee from murder/torture/rape or whatever is going to go back home to fill in some papers and wait for the wheels to slowly turn?...

[Osem]

Macedonia declares state of emergency to cope with migrant surge.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34014353

Macedonian police have fired tear gas to disperse thousands of migrants trying to enter from Greece.

It comes a day after Macedonia declared a state of emergency in two border regions to cope with an influx of migrants, many from the Middle East.

Large numbers spent the night stuck on Macedonia's southern frontier, and tried to charge police in the morning.

The Balkan nation has become a major transit point for migrants trying to reach northern EU members.

Some 44,000 people have reportedly travelled through Macedonia in the past two months.

This is going to get seriously nasty sooner or later. The absence of a credible plan to tackle this problem is alarming.

[Osem]

Germany's interior minister says he cannot rule out suspending participation in the agreement allowing passport-free travel between most European states.

Thomas de Maiziere told the BBC he supported the Schengen Agreement, but that it could be "in danger".

He also called on Britain to accept more migrants.

Germany expects to receive 800,000 asylum applications this year alone, far more than other EU states.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34016448

Seems to me that Germany is now facing the reality of its policy - offering asylum to so many people merely encourages more to follow and eventually sympathies change, opinions harden and something gives. Do we want their problem? Would that be a good idea? Closing the borders will trap large numbers of migrants wherever they are and lead to massive social unrest in those places as desperate people come into conflict with local people/authorities as has clearly been seen in Hungary, Greece, Macedonia, Italy, France and elsewhere.

For me this whole thing has been an entirely foreseeable mess and the lack of any serious commitment to tackle it has well and truly let the genie out of the bottle. Those in power have consistently dodged the difficult questions and we now have masses of desperate people stuck in Europe with no intention of going anywhere else. We might as well forget and asylum process because from where I'm sitting I can't see any of these people ever returning home and I reckon they'll quite understandably be wanting to bring families over at some point too. So let's tell it like it is eh instead of deluding ourselves that this is some sort of temporary issue and that once the dust has settled, millions of people who have become used to life in the west will suddenly want to go back to a land of chaos and ruins.

What are the super rich gulf states doing to help the Syrians I wonder? How many asylum seekers and migrants are they taking? As usual they sit back and let others do the tough work whilst they count their oil dollars and plan their latest spending trips to London. It seems to me that a great deal more pressure has to be applied to the likes of Saudi Arabia to get involved and do something about a crisis which is far closer to them than it is us.

Like so much that is wrong with the EU, theory doesn't work well in practice. Porous open borders have contributed greatly to these problems and the inability of such a large club to take decisive action on anything except the shape of our bananas has allowed this situation to get out of control. Whereas Australia has effectively solved the same problem (albeit on a smaller scale) our EU 'leaders' have compounded it and are still chatting over chilled Chablis and gourmet blinis about what to do whilst the trickle has turned into a flow and now a flood...

[figgyburn]

Germany and france are the big cheeses in the e.u.If they want to let them stay let them into germany and france only.Other countries should not be forced to take them in if their people do not want to.Something as important as this should maybe go to a referendum.let the people decide and not these bozos in brussels.The s##t has hit the fan now and they are caught like rabbits in the headlight.They never thought this swarm would take place.This problem will not subside.Once you let them in just watch the mass migration heading towards europe.It will make the migration of the wildebeest a pale imitation.

[nomadking]

At least the wildebeest migration is temporary and they go back.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by nomadking

At least the wildebeest migration is temporary and they go back.

Quite and what the grand EU pontificators fail to accept and/or acknowledge is that a) separating economic migrants from genuine refugees is very difficult and b) that large numbers of mainly young men who've finally gained entry to the EU and then been deemed economic migrants maybe years down the line aren't going to just pitch up at the airport and get on flights back home.

You simply can't expect such people who've struggled so hard to get here not to fight exceptionally hard to stay and in sufficient numbers they'd be well able to create a substantial amount of disorder in resisting any attempts to remove them. Aside from any disorder just how many legal actions and appeals would result and how many would be deemed by the ECHR or whoever to have established grounds for remaining in the EU despite their illegal origins. This has already been going on for years - it's not exactly unknown.

IMHO anyone who seeks to give the impression that the economic migrants can/will be removed is at best naïve and worst thoroughly disingenuous. They know full well that millions of people will be allowed to remain in the EU in one way or another and many will be economic migrants who had no right to do so. The only thing in question is how big the problem will be allowed to get before effective action is taken.

[ianch99]

This whole question hinges on the seperation of the economic migrants, people who can live at home but want more money, etc, and so leave home to find it and refugees who are escaping war and risk where they live.

The right wing agenda is to blur this distinction and so just say no to anyone wanting to come to the UK. The right wing media also seeks to create a sense of hysteria with regards to this subject so as to validate any policies that may arise to reduce the migrant/refugee intake.

We are more than happy to demand Europe to allow our UK citizens to emigrate to France, Spain, etc. but would be indigant if the reverse happened. Imagine the Daily Mail headlines if the South of England had 400,000 non-English speaking Spanish residents

I hear a lot of complaining about how many "migrants" there are, how it is all the EU's fault, how the UK, the 4th richest country in the world, can't help these people, etc but what I don't hear is any constructive discussion on how to start solving the cause of the problem.

Regarding the refugee point, let me ask this question: if you and your family were at risk of being shot, bombed, beheaded, etc where you currently lived, what would you do?

[Osem]

European leaders should do more to open up and help migrants instead of using language that dismisses their rights, a UN expert on migrant rights has said.

Talking about "marauders" and "swarms" was an unsubtle way of dismissing their legitimacy, said Francois Crepeau.

European countries should open official channels and their labour markets to migrants because building fences would not stop them coming, he said.

On Monday, a record number of refugees crossed into Hungary from Serbia.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34049512

Let's see then, by making it easier for migrants to come to the EU from all aroun d the world, this wouldn't in any way encourage even more to come here?

I'm not sure these people understand that there are countless millions of people who'd love to come here for a better life and we can't let them all come just because they want to. So having let 1 million come, 2 million, 3 million, 4 million, 10 million... what do we say the remaining millions and how do we then stop them coming?

What's happening here is that migrants are increasingly resorting to and being allowed to effectively blackmail the EU into accepting them. Those in Calais are a classic example, they'd rather risk their lives and cause all sorts of problems trying to get into the UK when there is nothing preventing them claiming asylum in France if they feel they have a case for so doing.

Imagine the world cup final gates suddenly being made a free event and people encouraged to just turn up - the host city would be deluged wih fans. Imagine then the gates opened up to the countless thousands of desperately keen fans. Would they form an orderly queue and stop trying to enter when the stadium became full or would they just keep on flooding in regardless of the danger to themselves and everyone else?

Whatever anyone thinks about the need to help genuine refugees and how we deal economic migrants we cannot help them all and the more we dither and create the impression that we will, the more they will come and add to the problem. To imagine anything else is naïve and to imagine that host communities are going to happily accept the effects of millions of migrants adding to their woes is as ridiculous as it is dangerous.

[figgyburn]

Originally Posted by ianch99

This whole question hinges on the seperation of the economic migrants, people who can live at home but want more money, etc, and so leave home to find it and refugees who are escaping war and risk where they live.

The right wing agenda is to blur this distinction and so just say no to anyone wanting to come to the UK. The right wing media also seeks to create a sense of hysteria with regards to this subject so as to validate any policies that may arise to reduce the migrant/refugee intake.

We are more than happy to demand Europe to allow our UK citizens to emigrate to France, Spain, etc. but would be indigant if the reverse happened. Imagine the Daily Mail headlines if the South of England had 400,000 non-English speaking Spanish residents

I hear a lot of complaining about how many "migrants" there are, how it is all the EU's fault, how the UK, the 4th richest country in the world, can't help these people, etc but what I don't hear is any constructive discussion on how to start solving the cause of the problem.

Regarding the refugee point, let me ask this question: if you and your family were at risk of being shot, bombed, beheaded, etc where you currently lived, what would you do?

the vast majority of the brits who live abroad are either rich,retired or crooks.very few I imagine are claiming benefits from the host country.