Marine killer deserves clemency
10-11-2013, 12:00
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#61
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Re: Marine killer deserves clemency
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh
You mean the innocent people that had intentions to shoot and blow up British soldiers
Don't suppose your oirish are you
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Which intentions were these? Are these "intentions" which you, like the troops on the day, have mistakenly assumed / alleged and which the Bloody Sunday inquiry found no proof of?
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10-11-2013, 12:20
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#62
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Re: Marine killer deserves clemency
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Angry
Which intentions were these? Are these "intentions" which you, like the troops on the day, have mistakenly assumed / alleged and which the Bloody Sunday inquiry found no proof of?
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Intentions such as IRA snipers in place before the march ,the probability of Martin McGuinness supplying detonators for nail bombs on the day of the march and carrying a machine gun (evidenced in the saville enquiry).Make no mistake that day was always going to end badly either because of the British troops or the IRA
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10-11-2013, 12:38
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#63
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Re: Marine killer deserves clemency
It has to be said that Mr Angry certainly knows how to make a memorable return
---------- Post added at 13:38 ---------- Previous post was at 13:36 ----------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Angry
I'm simply pointing out the fact that the British army has murdered it's own unarmed subjects and fellow travellers on the streets of it's own cities. As such this shouldn't really surprise people, should it?
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I know what it is you're saying and I agree in principle but I have to point out that you are mistake in that comment - the British Army didn't kill unarmed subjects, a number of soldiers did. It could be argued as semantics but I say the two are a world's difference.
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10-11-2013, 12:52
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#64
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Inactive
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Re: Marine killer deserves clemency
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh
Intentions such as IRA snipers in place before the march ,the probability of Martin McGuinness supplying detonators for nail bombs on the day of the march and carrying a machine gun (evidenced in the saville enquiry).Make no mistake that day was always going to end badly either because of the British troops or the IRA
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Marty, You'd do well to read the overview of the findings again. Here is David Camerons speech.
It makes no reference to any "probability of Martin McGuinness supplying detonators for nail bombs on the day of the march...".
What David Cameron does say (quoting the report findings) is "In each case, the findings are clear. It does the same for Martin McGuinness. It specifically finds he was present and probably armed with a sub-machine gun but it concludes, and I quote, "we're sure that he did not engage in any activity that provided any of the soldiers with any justification for opening fire".
Yes, the day did "end badly". Innocent civilians were gunned down in cold blood by members of the British army. Whilst you may wish to argue the contrary your Prime Minister stated "There is no doubt, there is nothing equivocal, there are no ambiguities. What happened on Bloody Sunday was both unjustified and unjustifiable. It was wrong".
There was no intention on the part of any of the victims who were shot dead "For those looking for statements of innocence, Saville says that the immediate responsibility for the deaths and injuries on Bloody Sunday lies with those members of support company whose unjustifiable firing was the cause of those deaths and injuries. Crucially, that, and I quote, none of the casualties was posing a threat of causing death or serious injury or indeed was doing anything else that could, on any view, justified in shooting."
You appear to be prepared to attempt to somehow excuse or defend the actions of the soldiers on that day. David Cameron takes a very different view whereby he states unequivocally "You do not defend the British Army by defending the indefensible".
Wise words indeed.
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10-11-2013, 12:57
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#65
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Guest
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Re: Marine killer deserves clemency
Quote:
Originally Posted by SMG
B.
However, if I had a wounded terrorist who had been shooting at me, Probably A.
I don't consider killing a terrorists a crime. The SAS has the only 100% cure for these people.
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I do not either but the law of the land sees it differently and we all have to abide by the law of the land or suffer the consequences whether you agree with them or not. Why should this man get preferential treatment? he should not imo
---------- Post added at 12:55 ---------- Previous post was at 12:52 ----------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem
Our forces are out there fighting an enemy that has no rules of conduct. They'll happily kill men, women, children in any way they can without compunction and do not deserve, IMHO, the protection of the Geneva Convention. I think circumstances such as these need to be heavily borne in mind when deciding these matters. It'd be ironic in the extreme if any of our forces were lost affording such an enemy a protection they clearly don't deserve or believe in.
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you can not have a law and then say it does not apply it is then a war crime . Saddam was hung for not obeying the law various AQ leaders including OBL have been targeted for not obeying international law. How can you fight on the side of that law then say it does not apply because the enemy which we are fighting because of breaches to this law do not follow it???
---------- Post added at 12:57 ---------- Previous post was at 12:55 ----------
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh
No it doesn't surprise anyone and we are all aware that these things happen ,the difference ,and it is a massive difference,is we hold ourselves accountable when it happens as we are doing now .
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how can you say we hold ourselves accountable then say the geneva convention should not apply to others???
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10-11-2013, 13:23
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#66
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Re: Marine killer deserves clemency
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Angry
Marty, You'd do well to read the overview of the findings again. Here is David Camerons speech.
It makes no reference to any "probability of Martin McGuinness supplying detonators for nail bombs on the day of the march...".
What David Cameron does say (quoting the report findings) is "In each case, the findings are clear. It does the same for Martin McGuinness. It specifically finds he was present and probably armed with a sub-machine gun but it concludes, and I quote, "we're sure that he did not engage in any activity that provided any of the soldiers with any justification for opening fire".
Yes, the day did "end badly". Innocent civilians were gunned down in cold blood by members of the British army. Whilst you may wish to argue the contrary your Prime Minister stated "There is no doubt, there is nothing equivocal, there are no ambiguities. What happened on Bloody Sunday was both unjustified and unjustifiable. It was wrong".
You appear to be prepared to attempt to somehow excuse or defend the actions of the soldiers on that day. David Cameron takes a very different view whereby he states unequivocally "You do not defend the British Army by defending the indefensible".
Wise words indeed.
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Which is exactly what i said in response to your statement of "which intentions" ,i think that answers your question .The IRA had every intention of turning that day into a very bad day for British troops and civilians ,the problem was that the soldiers being on edge,nervous ,scared or whatever opened fire first ,and yes i will defend the actions of the soldiers up to a point ,the same as you seem prepared to defend people fully prepared to blow the crap out of the soldiers
---------- Post added at 13:23 ---------- Previous post was at 13:06 ----------
Quote:
Originally Posted by tizmeinnit
I do not either but the law of the land sees it differently and we all have to abide by the law of the land or suffer the consequences whether you agree with them or not. Why should this man get preferential treatment? he should not imo
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Marine A is not getting preferential treatment ,he has been court martialled for murder and found guilty .However his sentencing should bear in mind any extenuating circumstances the same as any sentencing in civvy would .War is a unique environment and comparing it to civvy street is ridiculous ,in some cases committing a relatively minor offence like theft will get you hard jail time because you wear a uniform instead of community service or a slap on the wrist because you wear a hoodie,do you think that fair
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10-11-2013, 13:43
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#67
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Re: Marine killer deserves clemency
I reckon that our forces, for by far the most part, treat their captured enemies with a great deal more respect than the terrorists ever do when the roles are reversed. In an imperfect world, fighting an enemy that will stop at nothing, that's something to be proud of and nothing which was done in N. Ireland or anywhere else alters that.
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10-11-2013, 13:52
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#68
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Grumpy Fecker
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Re: Marine killer deserves clemency
Quote:
Originally Posted by SMG
No, & we didn't all have 2 way radio communication or bullet proof vests either M8.
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Yes.
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Your right. It is an arrogant opinion. Whenever I read posts like this, I picture myself in that position. Whenever a situation arises, a soldier needs to be forceful, aggressive, sometimes compassionate.
So here`s a situation. Your in Bosnia. People are dying everywhere. War crimes, murder, Genocide. Your with the U.N. You give some kids (about 8 years old) your sweets & chocolate, then some big bruiser comes out, punches the child's head, knocks her out, kicks her whilst on the ground, & takes the sweets. What do you do.
A. Shoot him.
B. Rifle butt him, & give him a good kicking.
C. Drive on.
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A if I can get away with it, B as a minimum
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10-11-2013, 14:37
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#69
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Guest
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Re: Marine killer deserves clemency
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh
Which is exactly what i said in response to your statement of "which intentions" ,i think that answers your question .The IRA had every intention of turning that day into a very bad day for British troops and civilians ,the problem was that the soldiers being on edge,nervous ,scared or whatever opened fire first ,and yes i will defend the actions of the soldiers up to a point ,the same as you seem prepared to defend people fully prepared to blow the crap out of the soldiers
---------- Post added at 13:23 ---------- Previous post was at 13:06 ----------
Marine A is not getting preferential treatment ,he has been court martialled for murder and found guilty .However his sentencing should bear in mind any extenuating circumstances the same as any sentencing in civvy would .War is a unique environment and comparing it to civvy street is ridiculous ,in some cases committing a relatively minor offence like theft will get you hard jail time because you wear a uniform instead of community service or a slap on the wrist because you wear a hoodie,do you think that fair
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no but some here want him to
---------- Post added at 14:37 ---------- Previous post was at 14:36 ----------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem
I reckon that our forces, for by far the most part, treat their captured enemies with a great deal more respect than the terrorists ever do when the roles are reversed. In an imperfect world, fighting an enemy that will stop at nothing, that's something to be proud of and nothing which was done in N. Ireland or anywhere else alters that.
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and the most part doing right does not alter the fact that some including bloody Sunday did wrong
Just to clarify my position here. I do not think what Marine A did was wrong I am all for blowing away all terrorists. My point is I do not think they should be treated differently in law the fact the law is wrong imo is not relevant
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10-11-2013, 16:02
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#70
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Re: Marine killer deserves clemency
I always thought the only rule of war was to kill the enemy.
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10-11-2013, 16:33
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#71
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Re: Marine killer deserves clemency
I know others have different opinions than me, & I would respect that opinion, provided the person has been & seen the same as me. Mr Angry, how many years have we had differing opinions re N.I.? Paratroopers are not street cops, they are highly trained & motivated shock troops. We train these men for front line action requiring overwhelming firepower & surprise.
It was stupid to put them on the street that day. It was a recipe for disaster. I believe I told you the same a while ago, we all knew they wouldn't take ****. I was a 20 year old lad on rapid reaction when the crap hit the fan.
Although N.I. & Iraq etc are different, clothes, culture, religion, abodes, country, etc, they share one fact, insurgents don't wear a uniform. So, who is the enemy?? They both detonate explosives, both kill their own people, women & children, to kill a soldier.
It is extremely difficult to keep an open mind when you see the bodies of your mates, or the aftermath of a bombing. I believe its a credit to most soldiers that they don't seek revenge, but, back on topic, this Marine broke the rules & he will pay the price. But allowance should be made, because he was trained to kill, without compassion, by his government.
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10-11-2013, 17:17
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#72
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Grumpy Fecker
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Re: Marine killer deserves clemency
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul M
I always thought the only rule of war was to kill the enemy.
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---------- Post added at 17:15 ---------- Previous post was at 16:35 ----------
Quote:
Originally Posted by SMG
I know others have different opinions than me, & I would respect that opinion, provided the person has been & seen the same as me. Mr Angry, how many years have we had differing opinions re N.I.? Paratroopers are not street cops, they are highly trained & motivated shock troops. We train these men for front line action requiring overwhelming firepower & surprise.
It was stupid to put them on the street that day. It was a recipe for disaster. I believe I told you the same a while ago, we all knew they wouldn't take ****. I was a 20 year old lad on rapid reaction when the crap hit the fan.
Although N.I. & Iraq etc are different, clothes, culture, religion, abodes, country, etc, they share one fact, insurgents don't wear a uniform. So, who is the enemy?? They both detonate explosives, both kill their own people, women & children, to kill a soldier.
It is extremely difficult to keep an open mind when you see the bodies of your mates, or the aftermath of a bombing. I believe its a credit to most soldiers that they don't seek revenge, but, back on topic, this Marine broke the rules & he will pay the price. But allowance should be made, because he was trained to kill, without compassion, by his government.
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And those who are quick to condemn him will never understand that if they have never served and put there neck on the line.
How many here are condemning this soldier when they have never served and therefor will never ever understand what it is like to put yourself in the position he was in, Weeks and weeks watching your mates die by people who don't give a toss for the Geneva convention in the first sodding place.
---------- Post added at 17:17 ---------- Previous post was at 17:15 ----------
Quote:
Originally Posted by tizmeinnit
no but some here want him to
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10-11-2013, 17:17
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#73
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Re: Marine killer deserves clemency
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirius
How many here are condemning this soldier when they have never served and therefor will never ever understand what it is like to put yourself in the position he was in where you are watching your mates die by people who don't give a toss for the Geneva convention in the first sodding place.
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Absolutely true but that isn't justification for a two-tier legal system.
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10-11-2013, 18:20
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#74
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Re: Marine killer deserves clemency
Quote:
Originally Posted by SMG
I know others have different opinions than me, & I would respect that opinion, provided the person has been & seen the same as me. Mr Angry, how many years have we had differing opinions re N.I.? Paratroopers are not street cops, they are highly trained & motivated shock troops. We train these men for front line action requiring overwhelming firepower & surprise.
It was stupid to put them on the street that day. It was a recipe for disaster. I believe I told you the same a while ago, we all knew they wouldn't take ****. I was a 20 year old lad on rapid reaction when the crap hit the fan.
Although N.I. & Iraq etc are different, clothes, culture, religion, abodes, country, etc, they share one fact, insurgents don't wear a uniform. So, who is the enemy?? They both detonate explosives, both kill their own people, women & children, to kill a soldier.
It is extremely difficult to keep an open mind when you see the bodies of your mates, or the aftermath of a bombing. I believe its a credit to most soldiers that they don't seek revenge, but, back on topic, this Marine broke the rules & he will pay the price. But allowance should be made, because he was trained to kill, without compassion, by his government.
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Excellent post.
Yes he will pay the price and still be condemned by some here but had he been a terrorist he'd be a hero to those he represented.
---------- Post added at 18:20 ---------- Previous post was at 18:17 ----------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirius
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Well said!
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10-11-2013, 18:32
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#75
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Guest
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Re: Marine killer deserves clemency
and those of you that have served have to understand that does not give you special rights to do what you want in law. The law may well be wrong but it does not give you the god given right to special treatment
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