Jeremy Hunt set to impose new contract on junior doctors

Originally Posted by Mr K

So we need the free movement of labour the EU offers, and more migrants after all ?

Even with that we're struggling to get the Doctors; more are threatening to leave for other countries because of this new contract.

http://www.gmc-uk.org/doctors/register/search_stats.asp

Originally Posted by Hugh

And the doctors seem to be putting forward two contradictory arguments -

A) Protection for working too long hours is being removed (when in fact maximum hours are being reduced)
B) They will lose money because they can't work excessive hours

exactly

[Osem]

That's because what they're engaged in now is more political than anything.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by Osem

That's because what they're engaged in now is more political than anything.

It could be a little more than that, although still not justified. Are they trying block similar weekend working for consultants? Are they objecting to no longer getting pay rises and promotions for simply breathing, ie length of service vs actual assessments of performance?

[Osem]

Yes, they're not mutually exclusive objectives.

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by Mr K

So we need the free movement of labour the EU offers, and more migrants after all ?

God, no! I'm just musing that the govt may be thinking that....

[richard s]

Hunt will go... He is so popular.

[Osem]

As another strike starts I'm hearing what appear to be contradictory messages from the medics. Each doctor I've heard today has managed to inject the word 'safe' (or derivatives of it) into the discussion repeatedly. I thought main remaining issue was pay for Saturdays and the like, so where's the 'safety' angle now?

Then they're now giving the message that the NHS is already overstretched offering a 5 day service when at the start of this recent dispute I was hearing many doctors claiming we already have a 7 day service and HMG was just using this false argument to stir up trouble.

I still have some sympathy for the doctors but from what I've seen/heard (much of which seems highly choreographed) I think they've got a pretty good deal in the circumstances and that what they're doing now is totally wrong.

[ntluser]

I think we do have a 7 day service but the quality of that service varies day by day with circumstances.

The safety aspect comes in when doctors, who are tired and overworked, are timetabled for further work because that is when mistakes are made.

There have been references in the press about the quality of service at the weekend being poorer with higher deaths during that period.

For me, it's more a case of better management with doctors say, working a 5 day service of 7/8 hours a day, but arranged in a way that provides the optimum coverage each day.

It's more worrying that as a country we are not producing enough staff to work in hospitals and no financial limits are placed on agencies who entice NHS trained staff away with better salaries.

The truth is that we have been overpaying ourselves too much particularly at management level and we have created what is a financially unsustainable situation.

If everyone took less there would be more money available to engage further staff and reduce everyone's workload making the situation both safer and financially sustainable.

Unfortunately, that requires a degree of common sense, something generally lacking in management, goverment and union hierarchies.

One person's pay rise usually becomes someone else's redundancy notice, which makes the situation less safe.

Found this interesting snippet from the BMJ, about a vote at a BMA conference in 2008.

http://www.bmj.com/content/337/bmj.a748.full

Delegates at the annual BMA conference voted by a narrow majority to restrict the number of places at medical schools to avoid “overproduction of doctors with limited career opportunities.” They also agreed on a complete ban on opening new medical schools.

David Sochart, from Manchester and Salford, warned that in the current job climate allowing too many new doctors into the market would risk devaluing the profession

And an informative report (in 2012) from the Kings Fund.

http://www.kingsfund.org.uk/time-to-...ical-workforce

Trends in the medical workforce
The medical workforce has grown substantially in the past 15 years, with an average annual growth rate of 3.4 per cent between 2000 and 2009 (1).

Several workforce trends require careful planning over the next 20 to 30 years: rising numbers of women and part-time workers in some specialities: concerns that the supply of fully trained hospital doctors could exceed demand: and challenges in recruiting and retaining GPs.

Between 1960 and 2010 medical school places in the United Kingdom rose by more than 70 per cent from 2,000 to 7,889, with a subsequent increase in the number of doctors graduating from medical schools to 5,684 in 2008/9. Overall, the medical workforce has increased substantially; the number of hospital doctors alone increased by 30 per cent to 143,000 in the past decade

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Found this interesting snippet from the BMJ, about a vote at a BMA conference in 2008.

http://www.bmj.com/content/337/bmj.a748.full

Wonder if they'd admit to that now?

[ntluser]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Found this interesting snippet from the BMJ, about a vote at a BMA conference in 2008.

http://www.bmj.com/content/337/bmj.a748.full



And an informative report (in 2012) from the Kings Fund.

http://www.kingsfund.org.uk/time-to-...ical-workforce

Fewer doctors may mean higher salaries for the few employed but it also comes with a higher workload for doctors and higher safety risks for patients.

Doctors are undervalued now by the government. Taken to an extreme, the failure to train more doctors or indeed nurses would lead to the collapse of the National Health Service. Indeed, even now we are having to poach staff from abroad to keep things going.

[Osem]

I hear some of those on strike are threatening to move overseas if they don't get their way. That's their prerogative of course but I thought they were all about saving the NHS and patient safety not bringing it down.