2nd hand tivo boxes
 

Hi

I have 2 TiVo boxes in my flat and I recently bought a second hand box on a whim assuming that as I pay the TiVo charge I should be able to plug it in and make it work

When I connected the box with the card supplied I got a message telling me to contact virgin to activate my box and presumably get charged extra.

I factory reset the box and put in a card from one of my other TiVo boxes, this time when it started up it spent some time trying to connect to the virgin media network but said the cable was unplugged but it had the co-ax cable plugged in (the same cable connected to one of my boxes)

Has anyone had any experience with 2nd hand tivo boxes who could advise me? I plan to play about with it some more tomorrow

Re: 2nd hand tivo boxes
 

It wont work. The box has to be supplied to you directly by virgin media, attached to your account and paired with the card aswell.

Re: 2nd hand tivo boxes
 

Its simple, VM have never sold there tivo boxes to anyone and therefor that box could be classed as stolen. They will not reconnect it without a paid for subscription

Re: 2nd hand tivo boxes
 

In a nutshell it won't work , the STB's are the property of VM and nobody should be selling them , with VM you rent the box unlike Sky were it becomes your property. As VM rent you the box they also offer free repairs to it unlike Sky were after 12 months it's out of warranty.

Re: 2nd hand tivo boxes
 

If you buy or receive a second hand TIVO from Ebay or elsewhere then you will be receiving stolen goods, because at all times the box remains the property of Virginmedia, also the TIVO will not work as it cannot be added to your account, and its only use would be as an expensive paperweight.

The same applies to any 3rd party set top box you purchase regardless of make or model it will never be allowed on the Virginmedia network.

Call Virgin and get a box from them that you know will work.

Re: 2nd hand tivo boxes
 

Don't panic, the key part of the legislation is "knowingly" receives stolen goods, and you clearly weren't aware that this TiVo was stolen. I could go further and explain that this TiVo isn't actually "stolen" as far as the law is concerned, but I've posted that elsewhere and it's not relevant here. The point being that you haven't committed a crime, but you have lost your money and the right thing for you to do now is report the whole thing to Virgin.

---------- Post added at 12:54 ---------- Previous post was at 12:52 ----------

Slight correction-"knowing or believing" it to be stolen.

Re: 2nd hand tivo boxes
 

Just to defend my post about stolen settops ;)

My point is highlighted below

Re: 2nd hand tivo boxes
 

I was more arguing Peter's suggestion that the OP has "received stolen goods", because he hasn't, rather than your suggestion that a 2nd hand TiVo "could" be stolen, which is actually correct, although only in a certain set of circumstances. Actually stealing a TiVo, ie. from a van, would be one, or signing a contract with Virgin with the sole intention at the outset of appropriating a TiVo just to sell it on for profit would be another. I actually can't think of any others.

Re: 2nd hand tivo boxes
 

I hope you enjoy your expensive door stops

Re: 2nd hand tivo boxes
 

Stolen from a house in a burglary :)

Re: 2nd hand tivo boxes
 

Given that VM only ever rent their boxes and always retain full ownership, then it can only have been stolen property.

It's VM's property. How is it not stolen?

Re: 2nd hand tivo boxes
 

To steal something, and for it to therefore become "stolen", you have to "dishonestly appropriate property belonging to another, with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it". This is the definition of theft, as per the Theft Act 1968.

What this means is that, if when you take something from somebody else you have already decided that you're not giving it back and are going to do with it what you like, then you are committing theft. However, it also means that, if it was your intention at the time you acquired the goods to use them in the correct manner, and only became your intention later to do with them what you like, then you haven't committed theft and the box cannot be considered "stolen".

So, with regard to Virgin STB's, if you sign a contract with them in order to get a TiVo with the sole intention of sticking it on ebay, then you steal it. If, however, you sign a contract with Virgin to get a TiVo which you intend to use in the proper way, but at a later date decide to stick it on ebay, then you don't steal it because at the time you appropriated the box you did so honestly, and you didn't have the intention to permanently deprive Virgin of it - you only formed this later. You will probably open yourself up to a civil claim from Virgin for the cost of the box and breach of contract, but you haven't committed the criminal offence of theft, and the box, therefore, is not "stolen property" as defined by the Theft Act.

Let's be honest, looking at VM TiVo's on ebay, they're going for less than £20. Nobody is going to commit to a 12 or 18 month contract with VM and pay the monthly subs involved in the advance hope of realising less than £20 minus paypal charges - these are in the main boxes that people have failed to send back after their contract has finished.

With regard to Peter's suggestion that the OP was "receiving stolen goods", I assume he is referring to the actual offence of handling stolen goods, again defined in the Theft Act. This lists several possible different ways of committing this offence, but for our purposes its enough to say that the offence is committed where a person, knowing or believing them to be stolen, accepts stolen goods or assists in disposing of them. That's a simplified version of a quite complicated offence, but I think it's quite clear that the OP cannot have committed this offence, for two reasons:

1. I think his post makes it obvious that he wasn't aware that you couldn't buy 2nd hand TiVo's - anybody who had done ANY research into the matter would know it wouldn't work and the reason why. He can't be accused that he "knew or believed" that a 2nd hand TiVo would be stolen.

2. For the reasons outlined above, the TiVo isn't stolen anyway.

Re: 2nd hand tivo boxes
 

Interesting. Thanks for taking the time to post that. However, if that really is the case then, as they say, the law really is an ass. How stupid :(

(Tried to +rep you but couldn't :()

Re: 2nd hand tivo boxes
 

But at the end of the contract, Virgin would have communicated that the box should be returned (or be disposed of in an "environmentally friendly way") either over the phone or by note/letter.

If the ex-customer then decides to put it on e-bay (after Virgin didn't collect it) isn't that at least fraudulent selling?

Re: 2nd hand tivo boxes
 

If the customer knows that they don't own the box when they put it up for sale on ebay then yes, you can make a case for fraud. That would be a crime committed against the person buying it on ebay, not against Virgin.

I would suggest that most people don't read the small print and don't realise that they don't own the box. This puts them in breach of contract with Virgin, but it doesn't make them criminals-and the same is true of the op, a fool easily parted with his money he might be, but he's not a criminal engaged in handling stoleng goods.

Re: 2nd hand tivo boxes
 

No, but a person acting in this manner could be wide open to a criminal prosecution under the Fraud Act 2006, under section 2 (fraud by false representation, the representation being that they are entitled to sell the TiVo box) - providing they are acting dishonestly, i.e. they knew they were not entitled to sell the box.

The same Act, in section 11, can also be used to prosecute people who buy cable boxes and modems with the intention of getting services without paying for them. The OP seems aware that there's a TiVo charge and, on a certain reading of his posts, also seems to be willing to attempt to circumvent that charge by purchasing a box off eBay (or wherever). Under these circumstances he could be at risk of committing an offence under the Fraud Act. I would say whoever sold the box to him almost certainly has done so.

Re: 2nd hand tivo boxes
 

So long as your eBay listing doesn't suggest this is usable on Virgin's network how would this be fraud?
Selling it on is an "environmentally friendly way" to disposal of it as you put it.

Re: 2nd hand tivo boxes
 

Because the seller is not entitled to sell it. Virgin's instructions are that it should be returned, or, apparently, environmental disposal. They are entitled to issue those instructions because it's their property. Knowingly doing something else with it is dishonest and therefore potentially fraudulent.

Re: 2nd hand tivo boxes
 

Of course where it gets confusing is that the original S1 TiVo users are certainly entitled to sell their boxes, but they won't work on the VM network

Re: 2nd hand tivo boxes
 

As I said in post 15, you can make a case for fraud. You won't prove it because as you rightly say the knowledge and intent of the offender are key, and I still prefer to believe that most people are acting honestly and are unaware that they don't own their box-I don't think people commit fraud for the sake of £20 unless it's scalable, and generally people only have one or two boxes to sell. That might be a naive view.

Re: 2nd hand tivo boxes
 

As of June last year, that is correct as that is when the service stopped. However, prior to that I had a S1 Tivo working perfectly well with NTL/VM since 2006 and with Telewest before that. Also, although I have no personal experience of it, I believe that the new public-domain AltEPG works perfectly well with any VM box.

Re: 2nd hand tivo boxes
 

I thought S1 stbs still work through a community based service.

Re: 2nd hand tivo boxes
 

It is Virgin Media property and therefore is not available for sale to the general public, so if you purchase a device or are given one then you are receiving stolen property, how clear do you need it to be.

If someone steals a car and you buy it then you are receiving stolen property, you may not be prosecuted but the car would be seized and you would be out of pocket, the same can be said about the Virgin Media device.

But to be perfectly honest all that would happen is that when you rang up the agent would just say sorry that device does not belong on your account, if you want one I can put you through to sales, leaving the OP with a TIVO sized hole in his wallet if he paid any money for the device and rightly so in my opinion.

As the old saying goes A fool and his money are soon parted

Re: 2nd hand tivo boxes
 

Yes. That would be the AltEPG I mentioned in my post :p:

Re: 2nd hand tivo boxes
 

Should learn to read :(

Re: 2nd hand tivo boxes
 

You seem (perhaps wilfully) to be missing the point. In Post 2 you used the phrase "receiving stolen goods". That is a specific criminal offence, and one which someone buying an ex-subscriber's box off eBay is not committing, for the reasons Andy explained to you.

The purchaser is not "receiving" in the legal sense and the goods are not "stolen" in the legal sense. Providing the seller knew he was acting dishonestly what he has done is commit a fraud. Providing the OP's intention was to use the box to dishonestly avoid VM charges (such as the Tivo charge he mentioned in post 1) then he also is open to an accusation of fraud.

In both cases such charges would be brought under the Fraud Act, which was deliberately written to make such fraudulent acts the equivalent of theft in circumstances where what has happened falls outside the legal definition of theft.

Re: 2nd hand tivo boxes
 

I take that you also missed the post below, by the way Virgin Media class them as stolen so take up your wilful argument with them as that is their decision not mine, would you like the address to contact them.


VIRGIN MEDIA
MATRIX COURT,
SIEMENS WAY,
SWANSEA ENTERPRISE PARK,
SWANSEA
SA7 9BB

Re: 2nd hand tivo boxes
 

Funny, you seem to have missed the fact that I quoted 'the post below' in my reply. ;) To be honest, there wasn't much notable in it, being as it was your usual habit of simply re-stating the same argument over and over again, rather than actually engaging with what the other poster has said to you.

Well done for missing the point of a discussion forum after being a member of this one for so many years though. I'm taking the point up with you because I'm discussing it here, as you are. Though once again I'm sure you're wilfully missing the point because it's easier than actually trying to develop your argument. Isn't this the part where you usually resort to posting cartoons?

Re: 2nd hand tivo boxes
 

As I stated Virgin Media class all such equipment as stolen so again I am just passing on what they have decided.

But as in the post above if someone has paid money for such equipment then all that will happen when they ring up to try and get it activated is for the agent to inform them no can do as it is not listed on your account.

At which point that person realises that they have lost their money for buying such illegal goods.

The loss of money will probably prevent similar instances happening as they will no doubt inform their friends what happens if they buy equipment not provided as part of their package.

Also most people will never see their money again as the seller has usually disappeared.

Is this not the point where you mention the area I live in and how much we hate other people or themes upon those lines.

What I now find strange is after the numerous times I have posted this since January 2009, that suddenly I am questioned over what Virgin Media thinks about illegally obtained boxes regardless of the history, maybe the is something else going on in the background, do remember that I have posted only what Virgin Media have stated regarding their own property.

Re: 2nd hand tivo boxes
 

My friend paid £99.00 for his, because he was already a subscriber
so to me he has paid for that box and now owns it

Re: 2nd hand tivo boxes
 

.. only if he paid the previous legal owner - Virgin Media

Re: 2nd hand tivo boxes
 

By that logic, if he was a O2 subscriber, would it would be OK if he bought someone else's stolen phone? ;)

Re: 2nd hand tivo boxes
 

Well, seeing as you are neither a judge nor a maker of the law, how it looks to you is spectacularly irrelevant. Your "friend" has bought stolen goods.

Re: 2nd hand tivo boxes
 

:LOL: don't you just love those Internet lawyers

Re: 2nd hand tivo boxes
 

Try to get your facts right as no one owns any Virgin Media equipment as it is only leased.

Using your logic means that I could go to the local Avis car hire and because I pay them to hire the car for a week it now belongs to me.:rolleyes:

Would like to be measured for your jacket with the long arms with leather straps and buckles at the end now or later.:rolleyes:

Re: 2nd hand tivo boxes
 

When i upgraded with virgin to a v6 box they let me keep my old tivo!
Is it possible to unlock it to use as a pvr?

Re: 2nd hand tivo boxes
 

Welcome to the forum.

I don't believe so, but someone with more knowledge may come along and give a more informed answer.

Re: 2nd hand tivo boxes
 

Only by ringing up and asking for it to be put back on your account as an additional box.