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-   -   Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33685162)

Mick 01-02-2012 11:01
Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sky News
It is wild, often wet, and incredibly windy - and it is the place Flight Lieutenant William Wales will call home for the coming weeks.

The Mount Pleasant RAF base on the Falkland Islands is readying itself for the arrival of most high profile search and rescue pilot in years.

His arrival here will be intentionally low key. The Ministry of Defence (MoD) insists this is just a "routine" tour of duty.

But many islanders think it is anything but.

"Everyone is so proud. It's great news. Everyone is patriotic here. To have a member of the royal family here to defend us is impressive," says Gerald Cheek, whose family have been on the Falklands for five generations.

The 70-year-old took up arms himself on the night of the Argentine invasion in 1982.

Argentina still lays claim to the territory and has called the prince's deployment a "provocative act" by Britain, coming as it does on the eve of the 30th anniversary of the war.

"Nonsense," says Mr Cheek. "This is simply sending out a strong message to the Argentine government that the British Government will do what they want to with their overseas territory. Why shouldn’t they?"
http://news.sky.com/home/uk-news/article/16160636

There are also reports that HMS Dauntless is heading over to the Islands to patrol them.

STONEISLAND 01-02-2012 11:07
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
If it does go to war and by the sounds of it will it be a different type of war to the 80s and in what way?

All about oil again!

Mick 01-02-2012 11:17
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by STONEISLAND (Post 35373336)
If it does go to war and by the sounds of it will it be a different type of war to the 80s and in what way?

All about oil again!
It's a big 'if' it gets to war, we have to be mindful that we cannot afford to get to that stage, we could end up with potentially mini wars all over the globe, you got the potential troubles in Iran, Syria not far behind and now this rears it ugly head again. Not good.

Damien 01-02-2012 11:33
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by STONEISLAND (Post 35373336)
If it does go to war and by the sounds of it will it be a different type of war to the 80s and in what way?

All about oil again!
Also because the people of the Falklands want to remain British and we are obliged to protect them.

Hom3r 01-02-2012 11:55
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35373330)
http://news.sky.com/home/uk-news/article/16160636

There are also reports that HMS Dauntless is heading over to the Islands to patrol them.
From what I hear it is just replacing a ship that is there.

The trouble is we have no carriers, the ones that are being built will not have the right aircraft to fly from.

So the Falktland will have no air defence:rolleyes:

STONEISLAND 01-02-2012 11:57
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35373343)
It's a big 'if' it gets to war, we have to be mindful that we cannot afford to get to that stage, we could end up with potentially mini wars all over the globe, you got the potential troubles in Iran, Syria not far behind and now this rears it ugly head again. Not good.
I would like to think if we are having are own war we would get help from other nations as we have helped them. :angel:

I would also hope if it does happen we will pull out of these little wars all over the world to concentrate on the Falklands

STONEISLAND 01-02-2012 12:00
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hom3r (Post 35373358)
From what I hear it is just replacing a ship that is there.

The trouble is we have no carriers, the ones that are being built will not have the right aircraft to fly from.

So the Falktland will have no air defence:rolleyes:
The new ship we are sending up is all the air deffence we need apparently.

Pog66 01-02-2012 12:16
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by STONEISLAND (Post 35373359)
I would like to think if we are having are own war we would get help from other nations as we have helped them. :angel:
Just like in '82 then - the US twiddled their thumbs whilst the French had suppied Exocet missiles to teh Argentinians

Pauls9 01-02-2012 12:24
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hom3r (Post 35373358)
So the Falktland will have no air defence:rolleyes:
Don't forget the tremendous amount of work that's been done to upgrade RAF Mount Pleasant. It's a far cry from the undefended islands the Argentinians found in 1982.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pog66 (Post 35373369)
Just like in '82 then - the US twiddled their thumbs whilst the French had suppied Exocet missiles to teh Argentinians
The Americans had supplied the UK with Harpoon anti-ship missiles. Rather better than Exocet, which is one reason the Argentine fleet stayed in harbour instead of coming out to face them.

Alan Fry 01-02-2012 12:51
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
We need to increase defence spending!

Also, if Argentina (with the help of other South American Nations) starts a war against the UK over all this and we win, this would improve David Camerons popularity, like it did to Maggie!

Chris 01-02-2012 13:28
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by STONEISLAND (Post 35373336)
If it does go to war and by the sounds of it will it be a different type of war to the 80s and in what way?

All about oil again!
If it is about oil, it will be Argentina's desire to take it, not Britain's desire to defend it. The UK's interest in holding onto the Falklands has never had anything to do with oil.

As for how a second Falklands war would be different - well, HMS Dauntless, the Type 45 Guided Missile Destroyer that will shortly be patrolling in the South Atlantic, is unlike anything deployed in 1982. A Royal Navy source told the Telegraph this morning that it's carrying enough missiles - and sufficiently advanced control systems - to take down every warplane in south America, let alone Argentina itself.

Dauntless could conceivably sit off the Argentine coast, in international waters, detect every take off from every military airfield and drop each plane from the sky before it even gets to cruise altitude.

In 1982 we needed aircraft carriers because the Falklands had already fallen. They fell because they were inadequately defended. It would be nigh-on impossible to re-take the islands again without carriers, which is why these days they are properly defended. The Argentine navy and air force would suffer very heavy losses were they to try to invade the islands again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pog66 (Post 35373369)
Just like in '82 then - the US twiddled their thumbs whilst the French had suppied Exocet missiles to teh Argentinians
The US provided invaluable logistics support in 1982 which were not widely trumpeted at the time because it was politically embarrassing for Reagan, who had supported Argentina's military junta as a preferable alternative to a communist government.

And the French were mortified at the use their hardware was being put to. They provided all assistance to the British forces to assist them in understanding how best to combat the French-made missiles and fighter jets the Argentie air force was using.

gba93 01-02-2012 13:32
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 35373360)
Well we can't project air power like then as we have no carrier fleet or Vulcan bombers.

There's always the threat of the submarines. Apart from that we'd better be sure to maintain control of the airfields.

Oil is always the prize. As it gets into ever shortening supplies there'll be more conflicts over it. That you can be sure of.
Don't forget Vulcan XH558 (see left) is still in airworthy condition ... just as well we might need it some day (soon)

Alan Fry 01-02-2012 13:42
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
We also have Eurofighters and soon we will have F-35s as well

We also have RAF Ascension Island and we could also use air bases in South Africa

martyh 01-02-2012 13:47
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35373416)
If it is about oil, it will be Argentina's desire to take it, not Britain's desire to defend it. The UK's interest in holding onto the Falklands has never had anything to do with oil.

.
I think it has now .Interesting article here about the oil around the Falklands .Potentially there is more oil than in the entire North sea fields

STONEISLAND 01-02-2012 13:58
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35373427)
I think it has now .Interesting article here about the oil around the Falklands .Potentially there is more oil than in the entire North sea fields
Thats what I thought :woot: $$$$

Hom3r 01-02-2012 14:21
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gba93 (Post 35373418)
Don't forget Vulcan XH558 (see left) is still in airworthy condition ... just as well we might need it some day (soon)
One Vulcan bomber is nowhere near enough, several where flow which the sole purpose was fuel carrying, it would fly so far in-flight refuel others, leaving enough for them to get back to the Acension islands, leaving the others to carry on.

Victor tanker also helped.

The RAF was ask to draw up a plane to do a bombing run so they wouldn't be left out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Black_Buck

Mr Angry 01-02-2012 17:47
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pog66 (Post 35373369)
Just like in '82 then - the US twiddled their thumbs whilst the French had suppied Exocet missiles to teh Argentinians
Let's not forget who was arming the Argentinians right up until the Falklands conflict. Pick yourself up a book called "The politics of British arms sales since 1964" for some real enlightenment.

Alan Fry 02-02-2012 09:06
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
British diplomats accuse Argentina of attempting to isolate Falklands Islands by pressuring Chile to end Port Stanley flights

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/fe...?newsfeed=true

Chris 02-02-2012 09:51
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Some more interesting analysis:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/je...sh-since-1833/

Quote:
In short, Mrs Kirchner might be advised gently to desist from the sabre-rattling, and return her attentions to the Argentine economy. If the sabre-rattling comes to nothing, it will eventually make her look impotent. If it comes to something, it will be disastrous.

Alan Fry 02-02-2012 10:06
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
The claim by Argentina overFalkland Islands (Along with the South Georgia and South Sandwich Islands) is backed by Peru, Mexico, Brazil, Chile, Spain China and the rest of Latin America, along with the CIS

On the other hand the British claim is backed by the EU, France, Turkey and the members of the Commonwealth on Nations!

Chris 02-02-2012 10:11
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
More importantly, the British claim is backed by the Falkland Islanders themselves, who have a right to self-determination enshrined in UN charter. And the Falkland Islanders overwhelmingly determine to remain British.

The Argentine claim is based on a highly selective reading of history.

Alan Fry 02-02-2012 10:16
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
We also have RAF Mount Pleasant on the Island with Eurofighter and other aircraft

---------- Post added at 10:16 ---------- Previous post was at 10:13 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35373921)
More importantly, the British claim is backed by the Falkland Islanders themselves, who have a right to self-determination enshrined in UN charter. And the Falkland Islanders overwhelmingly determine to remain British.

The Argentine claim is based on a highly selective reading of history.
I agree, but if there is a war, It might involve the baacking of other South American Nations, The former USSR and China

Spain backs Argentina over this because they also claim Gibraltar as well

Mr Angry 02-02-2012 17:23
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35373921)
More importantly, the British claim is backed by the Falkland Islanders themselves, who have a right to self-determination enshrined in UN charter. And the Falkland Islanders overwhelmingly determine to remain British.
Nobody is denying them their right to remain British. They (the Argentinians) are questioning British "ownership" / "occupation" of the islands - that is an entirely different matter alltogether

Damien 02-02-2012 17:26
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Angry (Post 35374240)
Nobody is denying them their right to remain British. They (the Argentinians) are questioning British "ownership" / "occupation" of the islands - that is an entirely different matter alltogether
They don't have a case for that either. The British are not occupying anything, it's British land, with British people who wish to remain British. The Argentinians are just rising tensions over land they have no moral or legal right to own.

Mr Angry 02-02-2012 17:43
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35374244)
They don't have a case for that either. The British are not occupying anything, it's British land, with British people who wish to remain British. The Argentinians are just rising tensions over land they have no moral or legal right to own.
In your opinion they "don't have a case for that either". I don't care either way Damien, I was merely pointing out that the chosen nationality of the islanders is not contested.

Chris 02-02-2012 18:00
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Angry (Post 35374255)
In your opinion they "don't have a case for that either". I don't care either way Damien, I was merely pointing out that the chosen nationality of the islanders is not contested.
"self determination" is not limited to choosing your nationality. It also includes notions of governance. The Falkland Islanders choose to have HMG govern them, albeit from afar and largely hands-off.

jamiefrost 02-02-2012 18:22
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pog66 (Post 35373369)
Just like in '82 then - the US twiddled their thumbs whilst the French had suppied Exocet missiles to teh Argentinians
If I remover correctly the French helped us by allowing harrier pilots to train against mirage planes. Im not sure but I thought the missiles were already sold. Further sales were stopped.

I think on paper dauntless has the capability to shoot done most in not all south American fighters not just Argentina's

J

Mr Angry 02-02-2012 18:27
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35374278)
"self determination" is not limited to choosing your nationality. It also includes notions of governance. The Falkland Islanders choose to have HMG govern them, albeit from afar and largely hands-off.

Yes Chris I'm aware of that. I was referencing your "And the Falkland Islanders overwhelmingly determine to remain British." statement which I understood to be a reference to their choice of nationality rather than their choice of governance.

TheDaddy 02-02-2012 18:47
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35374278)
"self determination" is not limited to choosing your nationality. It also includes notions of governance. The Falkland Islanders choose to have HMG govern them, albeit from afar and largely hands-off.
and the Argentinian's are infact questioning the islanders right to self determination as they aren't aborigional...

Hugh 02-02-2012 20:08
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 35374323)
and the Argentinian's are infact questioning the islanders right to self determination as they aren't aborigional...
Amusing, coming from anyone in the Americas.....

About 1% of Argentina's Population are Amerindian, with another 8% Mestizo (mixed European / Amerindian) - 91% is of European descent.

Alan Fry 03-02-2012 09:39
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Why don't we have a referendum the Falklands asking the people who they want to be ruled by, the UK or Argentina?

Kymmy 03-02-2012 09:46
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Fry (Post 35374565)
Why don't we have a referendum the Falklands asking the people who they want to be ruled by, the UK or Argentina?
Why should we?

The only claim outside of the UK comes from Argentina and not the islanders, why should we make the islanders choose for someone else's benefit??

Alan Fry 03-02-2012 09:51
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kymmy (Post 35374569)
Why should we?

The only claim outside of the UK comes from Argentina and not the islanders, why should we make the islanders choose for someone else's benefit??
To shut those Argentianians up over their claims about the Falklands!

Kymmy 03-02-2012 10:02
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
But why would that shut them up?? No matter what the people on the island decide I don't think the Argentines are bothered, instead they're more bothered about having the proximity of the land and it's resources for their own people.. Which is everything already explained in this thread..

Alan Fry 03-02-2012 10:36
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kymmy (Post 35374582)
But why would that shut them up?? No matter what the people on the island decide I don't think the Argentines are bothered, instead they're more bothered about having the proximity of the land and it's resources for their own people.. Which is everything already explained in this thread..
when we withdraw from Afganistan, get we send some of what remains of the British arms forces to the Falklands!

TheDaddy 03-02-2012 11:25
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Fry (Post 35374565)
Why don't we have a referendum the Falklands asking the people who they want to be ruled by, the UK or Argentina?
If only that had been thought of before, oh wait...

That in an Argentine-inspired poll in 1994, 87% of the island's population rejected any form of discussion of sovereignty under any circumstances

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soverei...Current_Claims

Alan Fry 03-02-2012 11:28
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 35374633)
If only that had been thought of before, oh wait...

That in an Argentine-inspired poll in 1994, 87% of the island's population rejected any form of discussion of sovereignty under any circumstances

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soverei...Current_Claims
Well I agree that the people of the Falklands want to stay British!

AdamD 03-02-2012 13:14
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
I'm surprised the UN hasn't taken a poll themselves and deemed the islands British territory if the poll truly is 87% in British favour.

Kymmy 03-02-2012 13:24
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Mainly as a poll is irrelevant to British interests in the Islands

---------- Post added at 13:24 ---------- Previous post was at 13:19 ----------

The British overseas territories that we possess are not about who lives there but the simple fact that it gives us territorial land and resources within strategic places throughout the world...

Pierre 03-02-2012 13:34
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Fry (Post 35374635)
Well I agree that the people of the Falklands want to stay British!
That's rich coming from someone who suggests anyone that wants to stay British should leave Northern Ireland.

If you give someone enough rope..................

Alan Fry 03-02-2012 13:47
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35374732)
That's rich coming from someone who suggests anyone that wants to stay British should leave Northern Ireland.

If you give someone enough rope..................
In Northern Ireland there is a large number of people who want a United Ireland, if you want to continue this discussion do in the "NI Shooting" thread

My opinon is that there a should a United Ireland within the UK with devolved powers!

Pierre 03-02-2012 13:52
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Fry (Post 35374743)
In Northern Ireland there is a large number of people who want a United Ireland, if you want to continue this discussion do in the "NI Shooting" thread

My opinon is that there a should a United Ireland within the UK with devolved powers!
In Argentina there's a large number of people want the Malvinas to be Argentinian

Alan Fry 03-02-2012 13:59
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35374748)
In Argentina there's a large number of people want the Malvinas to be Argentinian
Yes I know that but unlike in Northern Ireland, nearly everyone in the Falklands want to be ruled by the UK!

Paul 03-02-2012 14:03
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
This isnt about NI, please stick to the topic.

Alan Fry 03-02-2012 14:04
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul M (Post 35374753)
This isnt about NI, please stick to the topic.
Sorry! :(

blackthorn 03-02-2012 17:02
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Fry (Post 35374598)
when we withdraw from Afganistan, get we send some of what remains of the British arms forces to the Falklands!
Thats nice of you to send our troops, care to volunteer would you ?

Hugh 03-02-2012 19:38
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Fry (Post 35374635)
Well I agree that the people of the Falklands want to stay British!
Very big of you.....:erm:

Alan Fry 03-02-2012 22:18
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackthorn (Post 35374836)
Thats nice of you to send our troops, care to volunteer would you ?
We need to do all we can to defend those Islands!

Hugh 03-02-2012 22:22
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
And by "We", you mean "they'.........:dozey:

Damien 03-02-2012 22:54
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
It's always 'they'. I don't understand. When we discuss what the military should be used for you don't need to be in it to have an opinion. The Falklands in British soil, what is the point of the British army if it's not to defend Britons and their land?

Hugh 03-02-2012 22:59
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
But Alan has a history of volunteering our forces in areas not currently in conflict, to support his proposition....

Alan Fry 04-02-2012 00:09
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35375081)
But Alan has a history of volunteering our forces in areas not currently in conflict, to support his proposition....
In this case it is more of a deterrent aganist Argentina, so that no matter how much they complain about the so called "British Occupation" of the Falklands, they would never dare invade alone, unless the whole of South America were involved...

Hugh 04-02-2012 01:37
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Fry (Post 35375113)
In this case it is more of a deterrent aganist Argentina, so that no matter how much they complain about the so called "British Occupation" of the Falklands, they would never dare invade alone, unless the whole of South America were involved...
Like most of your propositions - extremely unlikely to happen....

Mr Angry 04-02-2012 02:08
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35375079)
It's always 'they'. I don't understand. When we discuss what the military should be used for you don't need to be in it to have an opinion.
That's right, you don't. However, in my experience, the opinion of current or ex servicemen & women counts for far more and is better qualified than that of anyone else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35375079)
The Falklands in British soil
Again with the opinion. The Falklands being "British soil" is not a given. That is the very crux of the issue at hand. If it were the case that the Falklands had simply detached themselves from Portsmouth or somesuch seaboard element of Britain several hundred years ago and elected to drift south then perhaps you might have a point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35375079)
, what is the point of the British army if it's not to defend Britons and their land?
Regime change, foreign invasion / occupation, peace keeping - loads of different things in addition to defending "Britons and their land".

If only it were that simple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Fry (Post 35375113)
In this case it is more of a deterrent aganist Argentina, so that no matter how much they complain about the so called "British Occupation" of the Falklands, they would never dare invade alone, unless the whole of South America were involved...
Bonkers. As usual...

Damien 04-02-2012 08:45
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Angry (Post 35375153)
That's right, you don't. However, in my experience, the opinion of current or ex servicemen & women counts for far more and is better qualified than that of anyone else.
Which is a handy way of shutting down debate, that I have seen more and more often recently. Someone debates the merits of an armed intervention and are dismissed because they themselves won't be doing the fighting. The Military has always been at the disposal of the Government and when someone joined the armed forces they follow the orders they are given. That's not to say their views are not important but they are not the only views that matter.

Quote:
Again with the opinion. The Falklands being "British soil" is not a given. That is the very crux of the issue at hand. If it were the case that the Falklands had simply detached themselves from Portsmouth or somesuch seaboard element of Britain several hundred years ago and elected to drift south then perhaps you might have a point.
It's British soil. That is a given. It's people are British and it's owned by Britain. Just because Argentina want it doesn't make it disputed. If France started laying claim to the channel islands we would rightly tell them to go away.

DocDutch 04-02-2012 09:22
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
The problem i see is that if Argentina would decide to invade which would be a hard 1 the British military hasn't got the capability to take it back again without massive assistance from either nato or just the us navy

Sirius 04-02-2012 09:37
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Fry (Post 35375051)
We need to do all we can to defend those Islands!
OK join up and off you go

---------- Post added at 09:36 ---------- Previous post was at 09:35 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35375081)
But Alan has a history of volunteering our forces in areas not currently in conflict, to support his proposition....
Hugh may i be as bold to say that should be Fantasies

---------- Post added at 09:37 ---------- Previous post was at 09:36 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Angry (Post 35375153)



Bonkers. As usual...
:LOL:

Hugh 04-02-2012 09:38
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
I see what you did there..... ;)

(re bold....)

Sirius 04-02-2012 10:02
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35375273)
I see what you did there..... ;)

(re bold....)
Indeed ;)

Damien 04-02-2012 10:10
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocDutch (Post 35375266)
The problem i see is that if Argentina would decide to invade which would be a hard 1 the British military hasn't got the capability to take it back again without massive assistance from either nato or just the us navy
I thought that we were still quite capable.

blackthorn 04-02-2012 10:32
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35375251)
Which is a handy way of shutting down debate, that I have seen more and more often recently. Someone debates the merits of an armed intervention and are dismissed because they themselves won't be doing the fighting. The Military has always been at the disposal of the Government and when someone joined the armed forces they follow the orders they are given. That's not to say their views are not important but they are not the only views that matter.
Yes you are perfectly correct and if I was to ask my daughter and son in law they would both probably say "its allright dad, dont worry" but when they went from Iraq to Afghan and now to Bahrain, from a really selfish point of view I would like them to come home and not be sent off to the Falklands. I remember being there myself and telling folk at home it was ok but in reality I hated the place. I`m just being a parent who having been in that position knows exactly what is going through their minds.

Maggy 04-02-2012 10:34
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35375291)
I thought that we were still quite capable.
But surely the question should be how capable are Argentina? :erm:

Mr Angry 04-02-2012 11:38
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35375251)
Which is a handy way of shutting down debate, that I have seen more and more often recently. Someone debates the merits of an armed intervention and are dismissed because they themselves won't be doing the fighting. The Military has always been at the disposal of the Government and when someone joined the armed forces they follow the orders they are given. That's not to say their views are not important but they are not the only views that matter.
There is a very real difference between debating "the merits (or otherwise) of an armed intervention" and simply calling for same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35375251)
It's British soil. That is a given. It's people are British and it's owned by Britain. Just because Argentina want it doesn't make it disputed.
It is "British soil" in only the most rudimentary sense of possession being nine tenths of the law. Again, I am not disputing the chosen nationality of its population but with all due respect I suggest you do a bit of reading on the history, geography and the disputed constitutional standing of the Falklands and you'll see that its ownership is anything but a given.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35375251)
If France started laying claim to the channel islands we would rightly tell them to go away.
Yes, you probably would - but for entirely different reasons as they are not part of Britain but are crown dependancies (and not forming part of Britain) rather than overseas territories.

papa smurf 04-02-2012 11:43
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
how did all those Spanish speaking folk arrive in Argentina ? did some one claim it for spain or something ?

Alan Fry 04-02-2012 13:26
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35375139)
Like most of your propositions - extremely unlikely to happen....
I never said that the whole of South America WILL invade the Falklands, but they do back Argentina claim!

---------- Post added at 13:23 ---------- Previous post was at 13:21 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by DocDutch (Post 35375266)
The problem i see is that if Argentina would decide to invade which would be a hard 1 the British military hasn't got the capability to take it back again without massive assistance from either nato or just the us navy
We have a RAF base in the Falklands and we should put what remains of the British Armed forces (after Afganistan) to be based at the RAF base!

---------- Post added at 13:26 ---------- Previous post was at 13:23 ----------

There have been many claims over the Falklands Islands over the many hundreds of years but since the 1840s they have been under British Rule and as far as I know the people of the Falklands want to keep it that way"

Hugh 04-02-2012 15:03
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
LMAO.

You want to put "what remains of the British Armed forces (after Afg(h)anistan) to be based at the RAF base!".

OK, and I know this may hurt, but how about Mr Reality coming to visit, just this once.

RAF Mount Pleasant can currently hold between 1000 and 2000 personnel, and the current Falkland Islands population (not including the visiting servicepeople) is approx 3000.

Won't it get a bit crowded with 90,000 army personnel, 30,000 TA, 30,000 Navy personnel, 35,000 RAF personnel, 1000 aircraft, 97 active service ships, and all the tanks and artillery?

TheDaddy 04-02-2012 15:15
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35375343)
how did all those Spanish speaking folk arrive in Argentina ? did some one claim it for spain or something ?
and how did all those Spanish speaking Argentines arrive to live on the islands before the nasty British, oh that's right they never bothered to set up proper settlements and gave up and went home.

Chris 04-02-2012 16:55
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Angry (Post 35375342)
It is "British soil" in only the most rudimentary sense of possession being nine tenths of the law. Again, I am not disputing the chosen nationality of its population but with all due respect I suggest you do a bit of reading on the history, geography and the disputed constitutional standing of the Falklands and you'll see that its ownership is anything but a given.
If all concerned actually read the history rather than tub-thumping over the bits of it that support their cause, Uruguay's status as a sovereign nation would be up for debate as well. After all, at the same time as the Falklands were part of the Viceroyalty of the River Plate, so was the territory north and east of the river estuary where Uruguay is now established.

Perhaps we should do as the Argentines argue, and ask the aboriginal peoples of that area what they think of Argentina and Uruguay. Mustn't ask the ethnic Europeans though, they're non-native and therefore they don't count.

Mr Angry 04-02-2012 17:15
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35375568)
If all concerned actually read the history rather than tub-thumping over the bits of it that support their cause, Uruguay's status as a sovereign nation would be up for debate as well. After all, at the same time as the Falklands were part of the Viceroyalty of the River Plate, so was the territory north and east of the river estuary where Uruguay is now established.
Again, I don't disagree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35375568)
Perhaps we should do as the Argentines argue, and ask the aboriginal peoples of that area what they think of Argentina and Uruguay. Mustn't ask the ethnic Europeans though, they're non-native and therefore they don't count.
Perhaps indeed.

Chris 04-02-2012 17:59
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Angry (Post 35375574)
Again, I don't disagree.



Perhaps indeed.
Indeed perhaps. And seeing as there are no aboriginals in the Falklands, we had best just leave the current inhabitants alone. ;)

Meanwhile on the mainland, once the few remaining ethnic Amerindians have given the European conquistadores their marching orders, the Argentine government might just wake up to the fact that every modern nation state in the Americas owes its existence to violent conquest, revolution and establishment of government against the wishes of the indigenous peoples.

Argentina's borders do not - and have never - matched the borders of the Spanish Viceroyalty which it claims to be the successor state of. As with all the nation states in the Americas, its borders and territories consist of whatever its government was able not only to claim but also to defend with force. The government of Argentina had a go at claiming and defending the Falklands with force in 1982. It didn't get them very far. By the same rules that allow Argentina itself to exist, that really is the end of the matter.

Tim Deegan 04-02-2012 18:12
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35375291)
I thought that we were still quite capable.
Not without aircraft carriers or harriers

Osem 04-02-2012 18:13
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Deegan (Post 35375625)
Not without aircraft carriers or harriers
Well we can rely on the French for those... lol

I really don't see the Argentinians mounting any sort of offensive with submarines in the area and see this as just more political point scoring by their leadership to divert attention away from other issues going on over there.

Mr Angry 04-02-2012 18:17
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35375607)
Indeed perhaps. And seeing as there are no aboriginals in the Falklands, we had best just leave the current inhabitants alone. ;)

Meanwhile on the mainland, once the few remaining ethnic Amerindians have given the European conquistadores their marching orders, the Argentine government might just wake up to the fact that every modern nation state in the Americas owes its existence to violent conquest, revolution and establishment of government against the wishes of the indigenous peoples.

Argentina's borders do not - and have never - matched the borders of the Spanish Viceroyalty which it claims to be the successor state of. As with all the nation states in the Americas, its borders and territories consist of whatever its government was able not only to claim but also to defend with force. The government of Argentina had a go at claiming and defending the Falklands with force in 1982. It didn't get them very far. By the same rules that allow Argentina itself to exist, that really is the end of the matter.
Regrettably "the end of the matter" as far as territorial ownership is concerned is not for us to speculate.

History and time have taught us that were there is sufficient will and resources for those who are minded to reclaim territories which they assert to be subject to foreign occupational ownership there is the very real likelihood that they will, by one way or another, achieve their aims.

Chris 04-02-2012 18:21
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35375291)
I thought that we were still quite capable.
We could mount a very effective defence of the islands with the hardware at our disposal but invasion of hostile territory would be incredibly difficult without carrier-borne aircraft.

If Argentina were to successfully invade, and maintain Mount Pleasant airfield in operational condition, they would have air supremacy over the islands, making an amphibious assault all but impossible.

There would still be options, mind you; the new Daring Class (Type 45) destroyers could set up an aerial defence blockade while our submarine force could set up a picket and deny access to the islands from the sea. But what we would then have would be a siege situation, and one which the Argentines would be better placed to ride out than we would given the inconvenient geography.

Mr Angry 04-02-2012 18:24
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35375641)
We could mount a very effective defence of the islands with the hardware at our disposal but invasion of hostile territory would be incredibly difficult without carrier-borne aircraft.

If Argentina were to successfully invade, and maintain Mount Pleasant airfield in operational condition, they would have air supremacy over the islands, making an amphibious assault all but impossible.

There would still be options, mind you; the new Daring Class (Type 45) destroyers could set up an aerial defence blockade while our submarine force could set up a picket and deny access to the islands from the sea. But what we would then have would be a siege situation, and one which the Argentines would be better placed to ride out than we would given the inconvenient geography.
Mike Jackson has said as much also. It's a bit of a tactical nightmare.

martyh 04-02-2012 18:25
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Anyhoo ,with all that gas and oil that's just been found they all just better watch what they are blowing up

Chris 04-02-2012 18:40
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Angry (Post 35375643)
Mike Jackson has said as much also. It's a bit of a tactical nightmare.
Hence the reason Flt. Lt. William Wales and HMS Dauntless have both been in the news this week, the latter accompanied by unattributed briefings about how many Argentine fighters it could shoot down (all of them) and how quickly (within minutes).

Their deployments may well have been planned many months ago, but then those responsible for the planning were well aware many months ago of the upcoming anniversary.

Nobody should be under any illusions about the symbolism at play here. Symbolism is, after all, something the British are particularly good at. We have sent, or are sending, the sovereign's grandson and the sovereign's most potent warship to fly her flag a few miles off the coast of Argentina. We're telling anyone who cares to take notice that we have the sovereignty and the means to hold onto it.

Tim Deegan 04-02-2012 18:52
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35375628)
Well we can rely on the French for those... lol

I really don't see the Argentinians mounting any sort of offensive with submarines in the area and see this as just more political point scoring by their leadership to divert attention away from other issues going on over there.
You can't fight off an air assult using just submarines though.

As soon as Cameron scrapped out aircraft carriers I though that Argentina would start to kick off.

Osem 04-02-2012 19:43
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Deegan (Post 35375663)
You can't fight off an air assult using just submarines though.

As soon as Cameron scrapped out aircraft carriers I though that Argentina would start to kick off.
Of course you can't but there aren't just submarines there. As has already been stated there is a state of the art destroyer, plus the ground defences. The Argentinians can't occupy the Falklands without naval superiority and they don't have it.

It's all academic anyway because this fuss is just the usual rhetoric designed to take Argentinian minds off problems at home.

Tim Deegan 04-02-2012 20:22
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35375701)
Of course you can't but there aren't just submarines there. As has already been stated there is a state of the art destroyer, plus the ground defences. The Argentinians can't occupy the Falklands without naval superiority and they don't have it.

It's all academic anyway because this fuss is just the usual rhetoric designed to take Argentinian minds off problems at home.
But they will have air superiority, which is all they need to fly troops and equipment in, and to launch air attacks on our ships.

Without the carriers we wouldn't have won last time.

Hugh 04-02-2012 20:30
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
But the type 45 destroyer negates the air superiority...

Quote:
In an intensive attack, a Type 45 destroyer would be able to simultaneously track, engage and destroy more targets than the remaining Type 42 destroyers operating together.

Kymmy 04-02-2012 20:40
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35375741)
But the type 45 destroyer negates the air superiority...
As they've not progressed much past the Mirage's they used in the early '80s I don't think they'll be too much of an issue..

At least this time the ship defences against Air to Ship missile attacks should be more effective between Seagnat decoy and the Aster30/PhlanX systems hopefully we won't have another HMS Sheffield disaster..

Tim Deegan 04-02-2012 21:28
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
One type 45 destroyer can't defend the whole of the Falklands. And a simultanious attack from a number of Argentinian aircraft using modern weapons could easily overwhelm a type 45's air defences.

Number one rule in any battle "never underestimate your enemy".

Hugh 04-02-2012 21:32
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Actually, it can, especially against the forces the Argentinians can deploy.

Read up on it.

"The Type 45 destroyer is the most advanced anti-aircraft and anti-ballistic ship in the world equipped with 48 Sea Viper missiles and the Sampson radar, which is more advanced than Heathrow air traffic control
The ship is in a league of its own in air defence able to track dozens of multiple targets"

Kymmy 04-02-2012 21:42
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Deegan (Post 35375774)
One type 45 destroyer can't defend the whole of the Falklands. And a simultanious attack from a number of Argentinian aircraft using modern weapons could easily overwhelm a type 45's air defences.

Number one rule in any battle "never underestimate your enemy".
As Hugh's already stated the type 45 should never be underestimated..

I'm sure though that with any escalation then it wouldn't just be one type 45 for long..

Hom3r 04-02-2012 21:51
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
We can easy defend the Falklands.

Look what happened to The ARA General Belgrano

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARA_General_Belgrano

It wouldn't supprise me if a few Subs were in the area.

Chris 04-02-2012 21:57
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Deegan (Post 35375774)
One type 45 destroyer can't defend the whole of the Falklands. And a simultanious attack from a number of Argentinian aircraft using modern weapons could easily overwhelm a type 45's air defences.

Number one rule in any battle "never underestimate your enemy".
Is this assertion based on inside information that contradicts this week's public warnings issued to Argentina by Un-named sources within the RN?

Tim Deegan 04-02-2012 23:17
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35375787)
Is this assertion based on inside information that contradicts this week's public warnings issued to Argentina by Un-named sources within the RN?
No it's based on my knowledge, combined with history, and the fact that I've been discussing this with my brother (who served on a type 45 recently) in depth over the last few days.

Edit: Sorry my brother was on a type 42, and not a type 45.

Kymmy 05-02-2012 11:37
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
HMS Sheffield and HMS Coventry were type 42s, also the Argentine Navy has a type 42 .. and of course we still have a few of them... It was shown with the sinking of our type 42's that they seriously lacked in air defenses and was one of the main reasons for the type 45 air defence systems development.. We're talking about something that could knock individual birds with jet packs attached out of the sky at the distances that exocets were launched at.. Including even an Anti-ballistic capability..

Type 42's had Phlanx capability same as the new 45's but not a decent fire control.. otherwise the exocets would never have got close

Chris 05-02-2012 13:43
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Deegan (Post 35375808)
No it's based on my knowledge, combined with history, and the fact that I've been discussing this with my brother (who served on a type 45 recently) in depth over the last few days.

Edit: Sorry my brother was on a type 42, and not a type 45.
It is unlikely that your brother has spent much, if any, time with anyone who has genuine experience of the Type 45 seeing as the first deployment was a matter of months ago and the first deployed crew is therefore still aboard.

The Type 45 destroyer can engage more targets simultaneously than five Type 42s working together. Its radar is also infinitely better and can detect aircraft take-offs from 250 miles away, a feature the Type 42 destroyers deployed to the Falklands in 1982 lacked.

History is the reason the new Type 45s are designed and specified the way they are. It is a faulty analysis to conclude that in the event of a conflict, things would unfold as they did before. The aircraft that successfully hit our ships in 1982 would have been detected well outside of Exocet range had the Type 45's capabilities been available. They would also in all likelihood have been destroyed. And had they managed to get close enough to fire, the incoming missiles would have had an entirely new defensive system to cope with.

martyh 05-02-2012 13:48
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35376064)
It is unlikely that your brother has spent much, if any, time with anyone who has genuine experience of the Type 45 seeing as the first deployment was a matter of months ago and the first deployed crew is therefore still aboard.

The Type 45 destroyer can engage more targets simultaneously than five Type 42s working together. Its radar is also infinitely better and can detect aircraft take-offs from 250 miles away, a feature the Type 42 destroyers deployed to the Falklands in 1982 lacked.

History is the reason the new Type 45s are designed and specified the way they are. It is a faulty analysis to conclude that in the event of a conflict, things would unfold as they did before. The aircraft that successfully hit our ships in 1982 would have been detected well outside of Exocet range had the Type 45's capabilities been available. They would also in all likelihood have been destroyed. And had they managed to get close enough to fire, the incoming missiles would have had an entirely new defensive system to cope with.
I thought type 45's had been around for a few years now

Kymmy 05-02-2012 14:00
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35376069)
I thought type 45's had been around for a few years now
The first one was only commisioned in mid 2009.. Along with training on the new type they've only been fully operational and deployed since mid 2010.. Daring (the first ship) has just been allocated her first mission in the gulf at the same time as Dauntless got her Falklands mission

martyh 05-02-2012 14:16
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kymmy (Post 35376083)
The first one was only commisioned in mid 2009.. Along with training on the new type they've only been fully operational and deployed since mid 2010.. Daring (the first ship) has just been allocated her first mission in the gulf at the same time as Dauntless got her Falklands mission
AH gotcha ;) so they haven't actually seen any operational service yet just sea trials and training

Kymmy 05-02-2012 14:18
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Also excercises..etc..

Now lets get back on topic ;)

DocDutch 05-02-2012 14:57
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kymmy (Post 35375958)
HMS Sheffield and HMS Coventry were type 42s, also the Argentine Navy has a type 42 .. and of course we still have a few of them... It was shown with the sinking of our type 42's that they seriously lacked in air defenses and was one of the main reasons for the type 45 air defence systems development.. We're talking about something that could knock individual birds with jet packs attached out of the sky at the distances that exocets were launched at.. Including even an Anti-ballistic capability..

Type 42's had Phlanx capability same as the new 45's but not a decent fire control.. otherwise the exocets would never have got close
Kymmy the 42s only had phalanx or the dutch goalkeeper systems installed after the falklands war.

To be honest with the 45 there now together with the flight of euros makes for a tight air defence network.

Kymmy 05-02-2012 15:52
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocDutch (Post 35376136)
Kymmy the 42s only had phalanx or the dutch goalkeeper systems installed after the falklands war.
:clap: something I didn't know..

"If you're not learning something new everyday then you're not living"

Tim Deegan 05-02-2012 19:23
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kymmy (Post 35375958)
HMS Sheffield and HMS Coventry were type 42s, also the Argentine Navy has a type 42 .. and of course we still have a few of them... It was shown with the sinking of our type 42's that they seriously lacked in air defenses and was one of the main reasons for the type 45 air defence systems development.. We're talking about something that could knock individual birds with jet packs attached out of the sky at the distances that exocets were launched at.. Including even an Anti-ballistic capability..

Type 42's had Phlanx capability same as the new 45's but not a decent fire control.. otherwise the exocets would never have got close
I think you missed my point. I wasn't just talking about attacks on British ships. I was talking about Argentina landing troops and equipment on the islands by air.

The Falkland Islands consist of 778 islands that cover 4700 square miles. Now although the type 45's weapons have a range of up to 70 miles. They simply can't cover the whole of the Falklands at once, to prevent troop landings.

---------- Post added at 19:23 ---------- Previous post was at 19:21 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35376064)
It is unlikely that your brother has spent much, if any, time with anyone who has genuine experience of the Type 45 seeing as the first deployment was a matter of months ago and the first deployed crew is therefore still aboard.
Hence my edit Chris.

Chris 05-02-2012 19:45
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Deegan (Post 35376351)
I think you missed my point. I wasn't just talking about attacks on British ships. I was talking about Argentina landing troops and equipment on the islands by air.

The Falkland Islands consist of 778 islands that cover 4700 square miles. Now although the type 45's weapons have a range of up to 70 miles. They simply can't cover the whole of the Falklands at once, to prevent troop landings.


HMS Dauntless isn't the only aspect of the islands' defence. There are four Typhoons permanently based there and the RAF has the capability to rapidly reinforce that number should the need arise.

Troops attempting to establish a beach head are incredibly vulnerable and under constant bombardment large numbers are required (because a lot of them are going to get killed). The UK sent a very large naval force to the Falklands in 1982 but suffered greatly from being vulnerable to Argentine fighter jets - the famous Simon Weston was injured (and many of his colleagues killed) while on board RFA Sir Galahad awaiting landing.

The defensive arrangements are supposed to make the Argentine government consider a military assault too costly (hence the further unprecedented leaking of information about a nuclear submarine deployment this weekend). In 1982 the British military posture (or rather, the lack of it) gave Argentina reason to think the UK would not defend the islands if it came to a fight. The policy aim now is to let the Argentine government see exactly what they would face were they to decide to have a go.

Quote:
Hence my edit Chris.
Hence my reference to him spending time with anyone who has served on a Type 45, rather than spending time on one himself (as you already corrected that point when I posted).

Tim Deegan 05-02-2012 20:33
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35376389)


HMS Dauntless isn't the only aspect of the islands' defence. There are four Typhoons permanently based there and the RAF has the capability to rapidly reinforce that number should the need arise.

Troops attempting to establish a beach head are incredibly vulnerable and under constant bombardment large numbers are required (because a lot of them are going to get killed). The UK sent a very large naval force to the Falklands in 1982 but suffered greatly from being vulnerable to Argentine fighter jets - the famous Simon Weston was injured (and many of his colleagues killed) while on board RFA Sir Galahad awaiting landing.

The defensive arrangements are supposed to make the Argentine government consider a military assault too costly (hence the further unprecedented leaking of information about a nuclear submarine deployment this weekend). In 1982 the British military posture (or rather, the lack of it) gave Argentina reason to think the UK would not defend the islands if it came to a fight. The policy aim now is to let the Argentine government see exactly what they would face were they to decide to have a go.

Hence my reference to him spending time with anyone who has served on a Type 45, rather than spending time on one himself (as you already corrected that point when I posted).
Thanks for your in depth response Chris. However I still think that a sustained attack from a country that is just 250 miles away, will be extremely difficult to repel without aircraft carriers.

My personal feeling is that Argentina would take the islands again, and then we would have to fight to win them back again...history repeating itself again.

A couple of aircraft carriers, as well as the supporting fleet in the area, would be enough to put most countries off even trying. And could save many lives.

Osem 05-02-2012 20:46
Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising again ahead of Prince William visit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Deegan (Post 35375734)
But they will have air superiority, which is all they need to fly troops and equipment in, and to launch air attacks on our ships.

Without the carriers we wouldn't have won last time.
No they won't because far too many of their planes will be shot down and it'd be impossible for their supply lines to be sufficiently maintained by air given their exisiting capability.

Last time was very different.

I think we're all agreed that the current situation re the UK's aircraft carrier capability is shocking and that if we had a couple available it'd be a great deterrent.

I dare say provision has been made to destroy the airfield by hook or by crook should that be deemed necessary as a last resort - doing so would require the Argentinians to parachute in everything whilst dodging a whole lot of state of the art missiles. It's also possible that submarine lauched missiles could target Argentinian airbases but that would be upping the stakes somewhat.


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