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TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?
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Old 10-08-2010, 18:37   #1
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TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

For those on TT do you know they may be following your visits to websites and collecting information without your knowledge? Those who know about Phorm may be interested, some links

Worth a read if you are in to this sort of thing (Im a member on here and you may have to register to read)

http://www.the-phoenix-broadband-adv...ic,1828.0.html

TT's forum link

http://www.talktalkmembers.com/forum...ad.php?t=46287

long reads but some may find it interesting, especially the response from the TT CEO on the phoenix forum

---------- Post added at 18:37 ---------- Previous post was at 18:13 ----------

I have permission to post these emails from the phoenix webmaster,its not just if you are on a TT line that you may be affected, it can be on other parts of the network if I've read it right this gives an idea what is going on................

So there is no misconceptions below is that complete email series, please do remember that they read bottom to top
I have remove certain information because it is confidential using ***

From: ***********roadbandadvice.org.uk
To: Charles Dunstone
Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 3:39 PM
Subject: Re: Invoice for Website Access


Mr Dunstone, if that is your name

I would suggest you do. You may find that my legal team knows more about contract law and the like that you do.

I am have been advised to strongly recommend that you ask you Company lawyers for advice on this matter.

Yours faithfully

**********

----- Original Message -----
From: Charles Dunstone
To: *********dadvice.org.uk
Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 3:31 PM
Subject: Re: Invoice for Website Access


This has also gone straight into the trash folder.

Your understanding of of English law is so laughably naïve, that I haven’t even bothered to forward it to our legal team.

Regards

Charles Dunstone



On 29/07/2010 15:25, "*******andadvice.org.uk"

wrote:


Dear Sir,

I would suggest that you keep a record of what are properly served invoices. The liability is Talktalk Group's for accessing my websites after you were warn you would be charged for any and all access/attempted access.

Mr Dunstone it seems that you and your company do not believe that English Law applies to you and Talktalk Group. Put simply you were told to stop accessing my websites, my right under English Law, Talktalk Group continued to access my sites. So as is my right again under English Law you were advised that any accesses/attempted accesses after 09:00 on the 26 July 2010 would be charge at the rate of ***** per access/attempted access and that any access/attempted access after that time would indicate Talktalk's agreement to the contract. Under English law the contract exists and is enforceable.

If the invoices are not paid that it will be a matter for a District Judge in the County Court.

Your faithfully

***********


----- Original Message -----

From: Charles Dunstone <*******@cpw.co.uk>

To: ********@broadbandadvice.org.uk

Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 2:36 PM

Subject: Re: Invoice for Website Access


Dear ******

As I have previously stated, we do not consider ourselves liable for any of these invoices you keep generating, they go straight into my trash folder.

Whether you keep sending them is your choice, but we are keeping no record of them.

Regards

Charles Dunstone



On 29/07/2010 09:28, "*******@broadbandadvice.org.uk"
wrote:


INVOICE - 003

29th July 2010


To accessing to our websites between 09:00 on 28th July 2010 to 08:59 on 29th July 2010

Cost ****** per access/attempted access, **** accesses/attempted accesses = ******

Total Invoice *******

Payment due within **** days of the date of invoice, after which interest will be added at the rate of ******* per week.

Payments to:
*********

To:

Charles Dunstone
TalkTalk Group Plc
1 Portal Way,
London,
W3 6RS
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Old 10-08-2010, 19:58   #2
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

Quote:
Originally Posted by speedfreak View Post
For those on TT do you know they may be following your visits to websites and collecting information without your knowledge? Those who know about Phorm may be interested, some links

Worth a read if you are in to this sort of thing (Im a member on here and you may have to register to read)

http://www.the-phoenix-broadband-adv...ic,1828.0.html

TT's forum link

http://www.talktalkmembers.com/forum...ad.php?t=46287

long reads but some may find it interesting, especially the response from the TT CEO on the phoenix forum

---------- Post added at 18:37 ---------- Previous post was at 18:13 ----------

I have permission to post these emails from the phoenix webmaster,its not just if you are on a TT line that you may be affected, it can be on other parts of the network if I've read it right this gives an idea what is going on................

So there is no misconceptions below is that complete email series, please do remember that they read bottom to top
I have remove certain information because it is confidential using ***

From: ***********roadbandadvice.org.uk
To: Charles Dunstone
Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 3:39 PM
Subject: Re: Invoice for Website Access


Mr Dunstone, if that is your name

I would suggest you do. You may find that my legal team knows more about contract law and the like that you do.

I am have been advised to strongly recommend that you ask you Company lawyers for advice on this matter.

Yours faithfully

**********

----- Original Message -----
From: Charles Dunstone
To: *********dadvice.org.uk
Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 3:31 PM
Subject: Re: Invoice for Website Access


This has also gone straight into the trash folder.

Your understanding of of English law is so laughably naïve, that I haven’t even bothered to forward it to our legal team.

Regards

Charles Dunstone



On 29/07/2010 15:25, "*******andadvice.org.uk"

wrote:


Dear Sir,

I would suggest that you keep a record of what are properly served invoices. The liability is Talktalk Group's for accessing my websites after you were warn you would be charged for any and all access/attempted access.

Mr Dunstone it seems that you and your company do not believe that English Law applies to you and Talktalk Group. Put simply you were told to stop accessing my websites, my right under English Law, Talktalk Group continued to access my sites. So as is my right again under English Law you were advised that any accesses/attempted accesses after 09:00 on the 26 July 2010 would be charge at the rate of ***** per access/attempted access and that any access/attempted access after that time would indicate Talktalk's agreement to the contract. Under English law the contract exists and is enforceable.

If the invoices are not paid that it will be a matter for a District Judge in the County Court.

Your faithfully

***********


----- Original Message -----

From: Charles Dunstone <*******@cpw.co.uk>

To: ********@broadbandadvice.org.uk

Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 2:36 PM

Subject: Re: Invoice for Website Access


Dear ******

As I have previously stated, we do not consider ourselves liable for any of these invoices you keep generating, they go straight into my trash folder.

Whether you keep sending them is your choice, but we are keeping no record of them.

Regards

Charles Dunstone



On 29/07/2010 09:28, "*******@broadbandadvice.org.uk"
wrote:


INVOICE - 003

29th July 2010


To accessing to our websites between 09:00 on 28th July 2010 to 08:59 on 29th July 2010

Cost ****** per access/attempted access, **** accesses/attempted accesses = ******

Total Invoice *******

Payment due within **** days of the date of invoice, after which interest will be added at the rate of ******* per week.

Payments to:
*********

To:

Charles Dunstone
TalkTalk Group Plc
1 Portal Way,
London,
W3 6RS
So TT has its own version of phorm, Just like VM will have with Detica
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Old 10-08-2010, 21:50   #3
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

more about Stalk Stalk (sorry talk talk ) at https://nodpi.org/forum/index.php/topic,2991.0.html

seems to have been going on for several months, a number of FoI's in as well
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Old 10-08-2010, 22:08   #4
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

STalkSTalk have been on my site too, no identifiable user agent. IP resolves to their Radius Servers. I haven't seen them tracking users on my site, but they have been spidering my site. I've sent TalkTalk terms, conditions and rates, for any future access. I'm not optimistic given the CPW/TalkTalk history of data protection failures http://www.ico.gov.uk/upload/documen...telecom_en.pdf STalkSTalk's rather limited official response may be seen here http://www.talktalkblog.co.uk/2010/0...s-safe-online/ Despite the very arrogant email responses from Charles Dunstone to the Phoenix admin, that his complaints and invoices weren't worth forwarding to the legal team, he clearly DID forward correspondence to the legal team, and the tracking and spidering stopped on the same day. Not been seen since. Yet they insist it's legal. So why stop? Maybe it's another case of a CEO/Chairman's tongue getting ahead of his brain. Who does THAT remind me of?
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Old 10-08-2010, 22:18   #5
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

I don't know - who does that remind you of?
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Old 10-08-2010, 22:28   #6
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

Quote:
Originally Posted by foreverwar View Post
I don't know - who does that remind you of?
could it be any of the big ISP's that seem to consider they can do as they please, because joe public can't afford to challenge them in court??
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Old 10-08-2010, 22:32   #7
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

I don't know - so I await R's answer with interest.
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Old 10-08-2010, 22:34   #8
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

Quote:
Originally Posted by foreverwar View Post
I don't know - who does that remind you of?
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34770626-post1.html but I'm not going there.
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Old 10-08-2010, 22:38   #9
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

Thank you, R - much appreciated.
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Old 11-08-2010, 09:08   #10
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

Quote:
Originally Posted by R Jones View Post
STalkSTalk have been on my site too, no identifiable user agent. IP resolves to their Radius Servers. I haven't seen them tracking users on my site, but they have been spidering my site. I've sent TalkTalk terms, conditions and rates, for any future access. I'm not optimistic given the CPW/TalkTalk history of data protection failures http://www.ico.gov.uk/upload/documen...telecom_en.pdf STalkSTalk's rather limited official response may be seen here http://www.talktalkblog.co.uk/2010/0...s-safe-online/ Despite the very arrogant email responses from Charles Dunstone to the Phoenix admin, that his complaints and invoices weren't worth forwarding to the legal team, he clearly DID forward correspondence to the legal team, and the tracking and spidering stopped on the same day. Not been seen since. Yet they insist it's legal. So why stop? Maybe it's another case of a CEO/Chairman's tongue getting ahead of his brain. Who does THAT remind me of?
Hi

Did you use the Conditions from the Phoenix topic?

Have they stopped accessing your site, if so when?
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Old 11-08-2010, 10:34   #11
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatari View Post
Hi

Did you use the Conditions from the Phoenix topic?

Have they stopped accessing your site, if so when?
Yes - used the contract you posted with modifications to suit my site. No they haven't stopped - they seemed to stop on 26th July, but came back again today but using a TT retail address this time. very very aggressive scan including a series of non-existent files and directories listed but banned in robots.txt. concealed user agent. Could just be a zombied TT customer of course in a botnet. NOT crawling links, but using a URL list and visiting each file separately rather than crawling FROM one to another.
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Old 16-08-2010, 21:58   #12
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

Further public comment from TalkTalk - on ISPReview - http://www.ispreview.co.uk/story/201...g-service.html mostly centred around the "if its on the web its publicly available" argument about their right to crawl websites. Which does not sit well with the T&Cs for accessing the TalkTalk and Opal sites. And they deny using personalised urls from their customers browser strings. Which does not fit with the website log evidence that is publicly available. So still a very big gap between TalkTalk's replies and the evidence that webmasters have been collecting for the last two or three months. TT are going to have to close that gap if they want any credibility at all with webmasters and also with their customers.
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Old 23-08-2010, 18:35   #13
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

Next TalkTalk missive with more interesting claims. http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/...snooping-fears Look for the comments on PECR/DPA compliance (although ICO is on record as thinking about it all for another 30 days) and the reassuring words from TT "The process is not dissimilar to how we record voice traffic."
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Old 23-08-2010, 19:56   #14
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

Quote:
Originally Posted by R Jones View Post
Next TalkTalk missive with more interesting claims. http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/...snooping-fears Look for the comments on PECR/DPA compliance (although ICO is on record as thinking about it all for another 30 days) and the reassuring words from TT "The process is not dissimilar to how we record voice traffic."
"The process is not dissimilar to how we record voice traffic."

so the next question is WHY are they recording voice traffic?

as that would be classed as private communications data and require a court order to monitor, let alone record
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Old 23-08-2010, 20:09   #15
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

"Calls may be recorded for training and quality purposes" I believe is the usual line given......
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