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Anti-gay adverts pulled from bus campaign by Boris Johnson
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Old 13-04-2012, 10:32   #31
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Re: Anti-gay adverts pulled from bus campaign by Boris Johnson

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Originally Posted by Russ View Post
I can see how some can take it that way - but others may see it as answering back at Stonewall constantly ramming sexuality down people's throats.

On the subject of morality, it could be argued either side are at fault however they both have views and should be free to express them, however repugnant or misguided.
IMO Stomewall wasn't promoting homosexuality. It's not a choice after all, such a campaign would be bizarre. It was against homophobia: "Some people are gay, get over it". That isn't ramming it anyone's throat no more than the campaigns against racism were.
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Old 13-04-2012, 10:36   #32
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Re: Anti-gay adverts pulled from bus campaign by Boris Johnson

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Originally Posted by Damien View Post
IMO Stomewall wasn't promoting homosexuality. It's not a choice after all, such a campaign would be bizarre. It was against homophobia: "Some people are gay, get over it". That isn't ramming it anyone's throat no more than the campaigns against racism were.
If you look at Stonewall's history especially the behaviour of idiots like Peter Tatchell you'll see they have a chequered past.

20 years ago during their 'OutRage' campaign (targeting ministers who were speaking out against homosexuality yet being gay themselves) they threw incorrect accusations of homosexuality around, especially at some public figures who were not publicly against homosexuality but were gay themselves and preferred to keep it that way. Tatchell took it upon himself to decide that they needed 'outing'.

When he tried to get Mugabe arrested that time - he then complained about getting a shoeing from his bodyguards - what did he expect? The beating was not justified but if you place yourself in the firing line like that, people with extreme views will react and there shouldn't be any surprise at that.

If all Stonewall wanted to do was promote the rights of gays then I have no objection to that, they're entitled to their views. But they have a history of taking things too far.
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Old 13-04-2012, 10:56   #33
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Re: Anti-gay adverts pulled from bus campaign by Boris Johnson

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Originally Posted by martyh View Post
I think we are all a little confused on some Christians belief on the subject of homosexuality.On one hand we have we have some churches allowing gay partnerships and blessing them on the other we have churches coming up with ads basically offering to turn gays straight .You tell us Chris ,exactly what is the churches belief on homosexuality? because i'm damned if i know
Your confusion is as a result of your unique place in history. Jimmy-j posted a quote from bible.org a little earlier that sums up orthodox Christian belief on the subject.* This was universally held as a belief until maybe 50 years ago when in many Western countries first the criminal status of homosexual practices and then their social acceptability in general came to be challenged.

Even today, in many countries around the world, you will find no confusion on this issue within the Christian church. The Bible's teaching hasn't changed; what has changed is that some members of some churches in some places have reacted to pressure from society and have shifted their views over the past generation or so.

*albeit lacking context regarding the judicial penalty prescribed at the point in history where the quote arises from - a fuller treatment of the subject requires a little New Testament study as well, but let's not stray too far off the topic.
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Old 13-04-2012, 11:03   #34
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Re: Anti-gay adverts pulled from bus campaign by Boris Johnson

Someone in the Huff Post summed it up perfectly, imho.
Quote:
Believe what you want to believe. Pray if you want to pray. But let's not fool ourselves or, more importantly, the vulnerable gay people who just want to fit in. Being gay isn't something you sit down at the kitchen table and decide to become. You can no more choose to be gay than you can choose not to.
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Old 13-04-2012, 11:08   #35
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Re: Anti-gay adverts pulled from bus campaign by Boris Johnson

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It may surprise you to know that there is no one core belief on this. If you want to go by what is written in scripture then those who have gay sexual relationships are to be put to death.

.
It doesn't surprise me at all Russ ,in fact that's basically what i said in my post.One section of the church will bless a homosexual partnership another won't .It all depends on their interpretation of scriptures

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Whereas some people still believe this (I suspect they'd be anti-gay regardless of religion), there are many millions who see it differently. Jesus said nothing against loving monogamous relationships and that's the view I prefer to take.
Which in my view is the Christian attitude .

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There is far too much 'them and us' is matters like this. It's almost like if you're not actively encouraging gay relationships then you're obviously against them and want gays to have no rights whatsoever.
Totally agree .
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Old 13-04-2012, 11:14   #36
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Re: Anti-gay adverts pulled from bus campaign by Boris Johnson

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One section of the church will bless a homosexual partnership another won't .
This does not help matters - 'the church'. I have no idea to who or what you're referring with that.

I presume you mean Christians?
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Old 13-04-2012, 11:31   #37
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Re: Anti-gay adverts pulled from bus campaign by Boris Johnson

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Originally Posted by Chris View Post
Your confusion is as a result of your unique place in history. Jimmy-j posted a quote from bible.org a little earlier that sums up orthodox Christian belief on the subject.* This was universally held as a belief until maybe 50 years ago when in many Western countries first the criminal status of homosexual practices and then their social acceptability in general came to be challenged.

Even today, in many countries around the world, you will find no confusion on this issue within the Christian church. The Bible's teaching hasn't changed; what has changed is that some members of some churches in some places have reacted to pressure from society and have shifted their views over the past generation or so.

*albeit lacking context regarding the judicial penalty prescribed at the point in history where the quote arises from - a fuller treatment of the subject requires a little New Testament study as well, but let's not stray too far off the topic.
I agree with that post Chris .Do you not think that this confusion has lead to the departure of religious belief by a lot of people ,simply because they do not know where the Christian church stands on issues of homosexuality ?
By bowing to pressure from society do you not think some parts of the church have abandoned some core beliefs of Christianity essentially invalidating the religion .
Is it right that religions are fluid and move with society ?or should they stick religiously(no pun intended) to their core beliefs.I appreciate that is probably a silly question from westerners point of view but as you say even today in some parts of the world in some religions homosexuality is treated as seriously as murder .

---------- Post added at 10:31 ---------- Previous post was at 10:29 ----------

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This does not help matters - 'the church'. I have no idea to who or what you're referring with that.

I presume you mean Christians?
Yes ,by "the church" i mean the Christian church in general
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Old 13-04-2012, 11:36   #38
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Re: Anti-gay adverts pulled from bus campaign by Boris Johnson

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Originally Posted by martyh View Post
Yes ,by "the church" i mean the Christian church in general
OK - as long as we're all aware that there is no central 'voice' representing all of Christianity. Despite what some people believe, the Pope only speaks for Catholicism, not Christianity.
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Old 13-04-2012, 11:48   #39
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Re: Anti-gay adverts pulled from bus campaign by Boris Johnson

Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh View Post
I agree with that post Chris .Do you not think that this confusion has lead to the departure of religious belief by a lot of people ,simply because they do not know where the Christian church stands on issues of homosexuality ?
By bowing to pressure from society do you not think some parts of the church have abandoned some core beliefs of Christianity essentially invalidating the religion .
Is it right that religions are fluid and move with society ?or should they stick religiously(no pun intended) to their core beliefs.I appreciate that is probably a silly question from westerners point of view but as you say even today in some parts of the world in some religions homosexuality is treated as seriously as murder .

---------- Post added at 10:31 ---------- Previous post was at 10:29 ----------



Yes ,by "the church" i mean the Christian church in general
The whole point of a theistic religion (which is just about all of them) is living to a set of external moral absolutes that derive their authority from the God - or gods - that hand them down.

In Christianity, morality is a reflection of God's character. He, personally, is what is good, right and moral. As his character cannot change, so what is good, right and moral cannot change. The way in which societies in the Bible have been instructed to deal with the bad, wrong and immoral has changed and developed as God's plan for his people has been progressively revealed, but the definition of what is moral has not.

Some sections of some churches in the UK have indeed abandoned some core beliefs and what they espouse is less and less a reflection of Biblical and historical Christianity as a result. No doubt they would still describe themselves as Christian and possibly get quite angry if someone suggested they may not be - but there are most certainly a lot of other churches even in the UK that are not afraid to stand up and question them on this point. How much of Christian belief can you jettison and still be Christian?

The Anglican church is the main one slowly to be tearing itself in pieces over this at the moment, although the Church of Scotland is having a go as well. Nevertheless, if you talk to an Anglican bishop from anywhere in Africa you won't find any doubt or equivocation on this issue.
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Old 13-04-2012, 11:51   #40
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Re: Anti-gay adverts pulled from bus campaign by Boris Johnson

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Originally Posted by Chris View Post
The whole point of a theistic religion (which is just about all of them) is living to a set of external moral absolutes that derive their authority from the God - or gods - that hand them down.

In Christianity, morality is a reflection of God's character. He, personally, is what is good, right and moral. As his character cannot change, so what is good, right and moral cannot change. The way in which societies in the Bible have been instructed to deal with the bad, wrong and immoral has changed and developed as God's plan for his people has been progressively revealed, but the definition of what is moral has not.

Some sections of some churches in the UK have indeed abandoned some core beliefs and what they espouse is less and less a reflection of Biblical and historical Christianity as a result. No doubt they would still describe themselves as Christian and possibly get quite angry if someone suggested they may not be - but there are most certainly a lot of other churches even in the UK that are not afraid to stand up and question them on this point. How much of Christian belief can you jettison and still be Christian?

The Anglican church is the main one slowly to be tearing itself in pieces over this at the moment, although the Church of Scotland is having a go as well. Nevertheless, if you talk to an Anglican bishop from anywhere in Africa you won't find any doubt or equivocation on this issue.
I was going to say: If the Bible is the unadulterated word of God, then there's no arguing really, is there?
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Old 13-04-2012, 11:55   #41
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Re: Anti-gay adverts pulled from bus campaign by Boris Johnson

Hold on, Chris - according to the bible, it was "moral" to keep slaves and stone people to death.
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Old 13-04-2012, 12:23   #42
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Re: Anti-gay adverts pulled from bus campaign by Boris Johnson

With regards to stoning, Hugh, you're conflating morality with a judicial process - hardly the same thing. Slavery is never dealt with as an issue of morality either. Much of the topic in the old testament concerns the regulation of something that is taken to be a fact of life. Even in the new testament the subject of slavery is dealt with only obliquely, namely whatever circumstances you found yourself in, whether master or servant, your primary responsibility was first of all to acknowledge Jesus as Lord and then to treat each other as you would treat him.

---------- Post added at 11:23 ---------- Previous post was at 11:19 ----------

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I was going to say: If the Bible is the unadulterated word of God, then there's no arguing really, is there?
Unsurprisingly, the people who are given to deconstructing those beliefs they find uncomfortable are the same people who tend to question the authority of the Bible.

The Bible isn't a product of medium-like automatic writing or such like. It was penned by people who were inspired by God. But the fact of human agency in the process is enough for people who can't argue against Christian teaching without at the same time attacking the authority of the source of that teaching.
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Old 13-04-2012, 13:16   #43
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Re: Anti-gay adverts pulled from bus campaign by Boris Johnson

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Originally Posted by Chris View Post
With regards to stoning, Hugh, you're conflating morality with a judicial process - hardly the same thing. Slavery is never dealt with as an issue of morality either. Much of the topic in the old testament concerns the regulation of something that is taken to be a fact of life. Even in the new testament the subject of slavery is dealt with only obliquely, namely whatever circumstances you found yourself in, whether master or servant, your primary responsibility was first of all to acknowledge Jesus as Lord and then to treat each other as you would treat him.

---------- Post added at 11:23 ---------- Previous post was at 11:19 ----------



Unsurprisingly, the people who are given to deconstructing those beliefs they find uncomfortable are the same people who tend to question the authority of the Bible.

The Bible isn't a product of medium-like automatic writing or such like. It was penned by people who were inspired by God. But the fact of human agency in the process is enough for people who can't argue against Christian teaching without at the same time attacking the authority of the source of that teaching.
Then how can homosexuality be treated differently - slavery was treated as a fact of life then, but is not accepted now?
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Old 13-04-2012, 13:27   #44
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Re: Anti-gay adverts pulled from bus campaign by Boris Johnson

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Then how can homosexuality be treated differently - slavery was treated as a fact of life then, but is not accepted now?
Homosexuality is treated the way the Bible says it should be treated - it really is as simple as that. The two issues are never given equivalence in scripture.
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Old 13-04-2012, 14:19   #45
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Re: Anti-gay adverts pulled from bus campaign by Boris Johnson

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Homosexuality is treated the way the Bible says it should be treated - it really is as simple as that. The two issues are never given equivalence in scripture.
Yeh, that's what I thought.
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