TiVo : Media Access Key

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by heeleybobs

It IS false advertising as TiVo capabilities are well known to the people this technology appeals to. Why promote that you have an advanced product for your service and disable the most useful and market leading features on said product. It's clearly a ploy for allowing for future enhanced features to turn on and ensure that in the general publics view you are getting extra services to justify a higher subscription rate.

Where do Virgin advertise that they offer the advanced Tivo facilities such as TivoToGo? Personally, I wish they would, but they are only advertising that they offer the tivo service. They do not advertise that they offer the same optional extras offered by Tivo.

Tivo advertise those services, but they don't advertise in the UK and as a user, your contract is not with Tivo.

May I remind you that Virgin Media have done this before (started back in Telewest/NTL days) when broadband internet speeds were started as a maximum of 1Mbps when the fibre optic network is capable of (and has been without any modifications whatsoever for many years) more than 100 times this speed with very little cost to the service provider.

The cables themselves may not have changed, but the hardware using those cables has been extensively upgraded. In any large scale fibre network, the limitations on bandwidth are actually imposed by the hardware running the service.

---------- Post added at 00:36 ---------- Previous post was at 00:22 ----------

Originally Posted by raegos

I do not understand why they enable recording via scart and not able to back up via HDD,

One simple reason. When you copy via Scart there is a loss of quality, even if recording SD content. Backing up to HDD would enable you to make perfect copies.

[carlwaring]

Originally Posted by heeleybobs

It IS false advertising as TiVo capabilities are well known to the people this technology appeals to. Why promote that you have an advanced product for your service and disable the most useful and market leading features on said product..

Actually, no. I'd rather they got the basics right first before adding bells and whistles; not to mention stuff useful only to a small number of its overall userbase. The bit in bold is subjective opinion only.

It's clearly a ploy for allowing for future enhanced features to turn on and ensure that in the general publics view you are getting extra services to justify a higher subscription rate.

It has not been announced anywhere that this new service will cost any extra and personally I don't think it will. So, at this time, your second point is incorrect.

May I remind you that Virgin Media have done this before (started back in Telewest/NTL days) when broadband internet speeds were started as a maximum of 1Mbps when the fibre optic network is capable of (and has been without any modifications whatsoever for many years) more than 100 times this speed with very little cost to the service provider.

Please cite a source for this statement of fact.

I've had countless offers from the cable provider at the time that say something along the lines of "Great news! We are giving you a new enhanced [insert [Edited] here] at no additional cost” when it’s cost them nothing to give it to you anyhow, in an effort to remain competitive.

So it's cost them nothing and they're giving it to you for nothing. So where's problem again?

It is business basics to charge as much as possible for giving as little as possible in order to maximise profits, but I do ask not to be insulted by being told I'm getting some sort of enhanced service when none of the technology has been improved to provide it and it's just literally being switched on.

I'm pretty damned sure that the equipment installed at VM that gives me my now 30mb connection is in no way exactly the same equipment that would have given ex-NTL users in this area their +/-1mb service however many years ago. If it is and VM have indeed never bought any new equipment, why are they so much in debt if they've spent nothing?

I'm not saying...

No, but you are talking complete BS.

[BenMcr]

Originally Posted by heeleybobs

Virgin Media is the service provider and TiVo is the product.

Actually Virgin Media is the service provider and Virgin Media:TiVo is the product i.e. it's a specific version of TiVo for Virgin Media.

Therefore any advertising by TiVo Inc. in the US is irrelvent as that is a different product

[andy_m]

Thats got a bit snappier than the original "Virgin Media powered by TiVo"!

[carlwaring]

Yeah. Always thought that was a bit long-winded

[BenMcr]

Originally Posted by andy_m

Thats got a bit snappier than the original "Virgin Media powered by TiVo"!

It's been like that for a quite a while. Think the other one only lasted a couple of months after launch

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by carlwaring

I'm pretty damned sure that the equipment installed at VM that gives me my now 30mb connection is in no way exactly the same equipment that would have given ex-NTL users in this area their +/-1mb service however many years ago. If it is and VM have indeed never bought any new equipment, why are they so much in debt if they've spent nothing?

Another way to look at it is why hasn't anyone taken action? Virgin have repeatedly published how much they've invested in the network (in the form of accounts) and it's a criminal offence (fraud, I think) to deliberately mislead your investors in that way.

[carlwaring]

Of course, I never thought of that

[heeleybobs]

Originally Posted by BenMcr

Actually Virgin Media is the service provider and Virgin Media:TiVo is the product i.e. it's a specific version of TiVo for Virgin Media.

Therefore any advertising by TiVo Inc. in the US is irrelvent as that is a different product

I would expect that if a product is advertised to be on a particular service provider then it would be the same wherever you are in the world. Take for example the Apple iPhone, Just because it's on a UK network they haven't disabled the Facetime feature, or iMessage, or Personal Hotspot (oh wait, some providers have decided to charge you extra for the convenience of using the data package you already pay for in a way that is potentially more useful).

I can't believe how many people jumped to the defence of Virgin and try to justify locking out features of what is a first class product. One TiVo feature that is missing that cannot be helped is the option to remove commercials from recordings, as advertisement investors would lose faith in the marketing power of TV advertising, thats fair enough, but to stop features such as TiVo Desktop Plus and Smartphone control over LAN is just ridiculous and customers such as myself want access to these features.

It has not been announced anywhere that this new service will cost any extra and personally I don't think it will. So, at this time, your second point is incorrect.

I wasn't saying that these so called extras will be individual subscription services, but it does give scope for the provider to up the charge of the service in general and say something along the lines of you are getting extra services and subscription increases aid future developments in the technology, which I originally referred to as marketing fluff. To a certain extent, this is true, but to just turn on features that already exist is not furthering development. Sky recently used the Anytime Plus service as an additional groundbreaking technology in a price increase justification letter when in fact they just released a box update that powered up the RJ45 ethernet socket that was already installed in the hardware, and routed it to a server that distributes content to which they have already aired.

I'm pretty damned sure that the equipment installed at VM that gives me my now 30mb connection is in no way exactly the same equipment that would have given ex-NTL users in this area their +/-1mb service however many years ago. If it is and VM have indeed never bought any new equipment, why are they so much in debt if they've spent nothing?

They spent a fortune on buying little companies that owned and maintained the regional networks to offer a national service under one name. And don't be fooled into thinking that this wasn't a clever business move as the infrastructure is very valuable in regards to its future potential and the decision to market the network to businesses was a very sweet profit making move as the service that can be offered on the existing technology is second to none. However, don't also be fooled into thinking that the black hole in the finances was caused by replacing technology because it wasn't. Anyone who had a webstar modem back from the 1Mbps days will know that the service was capable of 20Mbps upon introduction and was only restricted because there was no competitive demand for anything more. It's only in recent years that the Superhub was introduced but Virgin pay very little for the consumer units manufactured by Netgear, Cisco and Samsung.

No, but you are talking complete BS.

If you are happy with receiving a minimal service for a premium price, then good luck to you. Please do try and not offend people for having an opinion as my opinion is that the consumer shouldn't have to put up with marketing BS, and whether you like it or not, I am not on my own.

I do like how you used the quote option but didn't fully quote me...

Please cite a source for this statement of fact.

I didn't see them ripping up my street and lay new cabling so this would suggest that they are using the same network infrastructure. So in response to your request, my source for fact is the lack of footpaths dug up when speeds increase. Please read my comment carefully, fibre optic cables are capable, and always have been, of carrying an immense amount of data. If you think that the Cable TV service was provided by a 1Mbps downstream then let me assure you that the first generation Pace cable boxes in the UK reported downlink speeds of 10Mbps in the engineers hidden installation menu and this speed was limited only by the parts used in the STB.

Actually, no. I'd rather they got the basics right first before adding bells and whistles; not to mention stuff useful only to a small number of its overall userbase. The bit in bold is subjective opinion only.

I agree with your comment about getting basics right before adding extra enhancements which you refer to as "bells and whistles", but this is proven technology that started in the USA as far back as 2005. And before all the defensive people start throwing toys out of the pram again such as from my last post, yes I do know that the current features were not available back then and have developed over time. But my point is that if it's good enough to release to the masses in one country, it's good enough for all. And yes, I accept that what you highlighted in bold is subjective opinion, I'll give you that.


I'll put a question out there to you all, which would you honestly prefer to have, the current Virgin Media TiVo service, or the Service currently offered in the USA?

---------- Post added at 01:23 ---------- Previous post was at 01:13 ----------

Originally Posted by Stuart

Another way to look at it is why hasn't anyone taken action? Virgin have repeatedly published how much they've invested in the network (in the form of accounts) and it's a criminal offence (fraud, I think) to deliberately mislead your investors in that way.

It wouldn't be a fraudulent use of the term "invested in the network" if the investment was put into maintenance of the network to merely increase uptime. You do make a good point here but be aware of what can be implied by what is very vague terminology in regards to the word investment.

---------- Post added at 01:50 ---------- Previous post was at 01:23 ----------

Originally Posted by Stuart

Where do Virgin advertise that they offer the advanced Tivo facilities such as TivoToGo? Personally, I wish they would, but they are only advertising that they offer the tivo service. They do not advertise that they offer the same optional extras offered by Tivo.

I don't usually answer a question with a question, but who made the decision that TiVoToGo was an "advanced facility". As far as I'm concerned, the whole TiVo service is an advanced STB and offers the ability. I don't have a Sky+ box and call the recording option an advanced ability, so TiVo technology shouldn't be treated like this either. I think that the TiVoToGo option is deactivated due to distribution rights that have not been agreed yet to be honest, so some features I can understand being deactivated, but not in relation to TiVo's own technology such as music and photo sharing over LAN connection for instance. and who has said that the features I have mentioned are Optional Extras?


[QUOTE]Tivo advertise those services, but they don't advertise in the UK and as a user, your contract is not with Tivo.{/QUOTE]

I agree, I have a service contract with Virgin Media to be served content, but not hardware features that are associated with the TiVo brand in hardware, just turn them on.

The cables themselves may not have changed, but the hardware using those cables has been extensively upgraded. In any large scale fibre network, the limitations on bandwidth are actually imposed by the hardware running the service.

Maybe you are aware of some technological developments that I'm not aware of, so maybe you could be specific and educate me to what this secret technology is because it sure hasn't made it's way to fee paying customers. Correct, hardware such as node termination devices and servers can limit the capabilities of a cable infrastructure, but I can't accept the term "extensively upgraded' as that sure hasn't been made public knowledge. Even software enhancements can do the same by running more efficiently, but the fact is that the network is capable of more than it's being used for even now. but back to my original point, the technology in TiVo exists in it's current form so turn it on and let us use it if we want.

[BenMcr]

Originally Posted by heeleybobs

I would expect that if a product is advertised to be on a particular service provider then it would be the same wherever you are in the world. Take for example the Apple iPhone, Just because it's on a UK network they haven't disabled the Facetime feature, or iMessage, or Personal Hotspot (oh wait, some providers have decided to charge you extra for the convenience of using the data package you already pay for in a way that is potentially more useful).

Not the same model at all. Apple make the iPhone and 'own' the customer, and then the networks basically sell Apple's product.

Virgin Media:TiVo is Virgin's own product. It is not US TiVo, and has never claimed to be. The hardware is Virgin's design as are the choice of who makes the hardware. TiVo supply the software only.

but to stop features such as TiVo Desktop Plus and Smartphone control over LAN is just ridiculous and customers such as myself want access to these features.

TiVo Desktop Plus is as much about content rights as anything else. US consumer rights over content are different, plus in the US TiVo is an add on box, same as a DVD, Video or Freeview recorder. So what you can do with it differs than if it's part of a direct cable provider's offering

Also VM haven't stopped Smartphone remote controls where they follow published guidelines

What has been stopped (by TiVo Inc as they keep blocking them in the US too) are those apps that hack an undocumented protocol to get them to work

I didn't see them ripping up my street and lay new cabling so this would suggest that they are using the same network infrastructure. So in response to your request, my source for fact is the lack of footpaths dug up when speeds increase. Please read my comment carefully, fibre optic cables are capable, and always have been, of carrying an immense amount of data. If you think that the Cable TV service was provided by a 1Mbps downstream then let me assure you that the first generation Pace cable boxes in the UK reported downlink speeds of 10Mbps in the engineers hidden installation menu and this speed was limited only by the parts used in the STB.

Then you don't know how cable works.

Yes, coax and fibre are capable of faster speeds, but the modems, routers, CMTS and other hardware within the network isn't/wasn't. All the customer may see is a new modem, but there is a lot of other kit that gets changed.

Even when Virgin introduced a load of new HD channels, that was only possible after the introduction of the NGTV platform - most of which was new kit at Virgin Media's end. It was why the HD channels were rolled out on a regional basis

I'll put a question out there to you all, which would you honestly prefer to have, the current Virgin Media TiVo service, or the Service currently offered in the USA?

Obviously the best service possible, which is also what Virgin Media wants. But there is a lot more to offering TiVo as a core service, rather than an add on box. Any features that are enabled have to be tested, and then agents trained to support it, documentation written, and then rolled out to customers.

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by heeleybobs

I don't usually answer a question with a question, but who made the decision that TiVoToGo was an "advanced facility". As far as I'm concerned, the whole TiVo service is an advanced STB and offers the ability. I don't have a Sky+ box and call the recording option an advanced ability, so TiVo technology shouldn't be treated like this either. I think that the TiVoToGo option is deactivated due to distribution rights that have not been agreed yet to be honest, so some features I can understand being deactivated, but not in relation to TiVo's own technology such as music and photo sharing over LAN connection for instance. and who has said that the features I have mentioned are Optional Extras?

When I said Tivo To Go was an advanced facility, i meant that it was offered as an option on the base Tivo software. What I mean by this is that if it were not optional, VM would probably not have the option of disabling it.

I think the problem is rights, and I suspect part of that problem is Sky. Sky have proved very good at agreeing contracts with channels that then prevent those channels offering anything to other platforms that might put Sky at a disadvantage. Tivo To Go would certainly put Sky at a disadvantage as they can't (AFAIK) offer anything to compete.

I'll be honest that is speculation though.

I agree, I have a service contract with Virgin Media to be served content, but not hardware features that are associated with the TiVo brand in hardware, just turn them on.

The point was that Tivo (or any brand) are free to offer different facilities in different countries.

It's interesting that you bought up Apple (and the iPhone) as they were recently punished for selling the iPad 3 as a 4G capable device worldwide when it isn't.

Maybe you are aware of some technological developments that I'm not aware of, so maybe you could be specific and educate me to what this secret technology is because it sure hasn't made it's way to fee paying customers. Correct, hardware such as node termination devices and servers can limit the capabilities of a cable infrastructure, but I can't accept the term "extensively upgraded' as that sure hasn't been made public knowledge. Even software enhancements can do the same by running more efficiently, but the fact is that the network is capable of more than it's being used for even now. but back to my original point, the technology in TiVo exists in it's current form so turn it on and let us use it if we want.

Ben's done a far better job than I could, but let's just say from what I have been told, the hardware in VM's headends bears little resemblance to the hardware in place 4 or 5 years ago. The fact that most consumers are largely unaware of the upgrades beyond seeing more channels and faster broadband is a testament to how well the engineers performing the upgrade did their job. As a person who helps maintain rather a large network myself (several thousand users), I know that the one thing you don't want is users to be affected by upgrades. It's better if they aren't even aware, but you are able to offer better (or faster) service as a result.

I would like to see Tivo To Go introduced in this country. I suspect that VM want to as well. It would be a hell of a selling point for their marketing department to get their claws into to get one over on Sky.

[heeleybobs]

Virgin Media:TiVo is Virgin's own product. It is not US TiVo, and has never claimed to be. The hardware is Virgin's design as are the choice of who makes the hardware. TiVo supply the software only.

No, sorry got to disagree, there is more to TiVo than a thumbs up button. Please do take time to educate yourself first. There is no such thing as "TiVo US", TiVo is a technology that, and I quote, "brings the best entertainment from cable and the web together in one place, with one remote and one simple search across everything" and with that there should be no limitations whether it be software or hardware. I do understand that Virgin contract Cisco and more recently Samsung to manufacture and provide the hardware.

I know that Virgin do offer web content and the search option mentioned, but if the software supports the features, then why not allow it.

Then you don't know how cable works.

You have no idea what technical background I'm from and I've worked in this field for long enough to know that very little has changed with a good 80% simply a case of removing restrictions at literally the flick of a switch. We are talking about true dedicated DSL services here, not ADSL services which have limitations due to age of infrastructure and clever workarounds to push the boundaries of widespread PSTN technologies.

Even when Virgin introduced a load of new HD channels, that was only possible after the introduction of the NGTV platform - most of which was new kit at Virgin Media's end. It was why the HD channels were rolled out on a regional basis

Agreed, but this was new technology at the distribution end which introduced new standards and we will have to go through a full technical upgrade to supply the new 4K service thats currently only available in South Korea, and if Sony have there way, even their new 8K service. But we are going off subject here as this has nothing to do with my original TiVo comment where things are just turned off. If you hook up your TiVo box to your LAN and do a port scan then you'll find a web server running on SSL which would offer a network backup option for recorded shows. Fair enough it would be slow, but an option all the same. (Yes I know this is a rights issue but is just given as an example and has other uses too)

I'm not saying that updated hardware is never implemented, but I am saying that it's not as often as is implied.

Obviously the best service possible, which is also what Virgin Media wants. But there is a lot more to offering TiVo as a core service, rather than an add on box. Any features that are enabled have to be tested, and then agents trained to support it, documentation written, and then rolled out to customers.

Well if thats the case, then why don't I have the freedom to hook up my own hardware and make my own decision to release TiVo's full potential with services that I want as an individual. Maybe you're unaware that the cable service in the UK has MAC address authentication locking you down to very specific hardware. And before anyone (usually VM Access Field Technicians) gets into the "protecting our network" argument, please save yourself from embarrassment as it's not a problem other countries networks have. The network is protected at the Copper/Fibre transition in the street and that is fact.

You will see things been activated more frequently when BT's Infinity project is complete and there is direct competition in the works, the service won't be as exclusive as it has been up to now.

[BenMcr]

You have no idea what technical background I'm from and I've worked in this field for long enough to know that very little has changed with a good 80% simply a case of removing restrictions at literally the flick of a switch. We are talking about true dedicated DSL services here, not ADSL services which have limitations due to age of infrastructure and clever workarounds to push the boundaries of widespread PSTN technologies.

Considering Virgin Media deployed a D3 overlay network several years ago, which required brand new CTMS hardware everywhere, then that is completely wrong.

Originally Posted by heeleybobs

Well if thats the case, then why don't I have the freedom to hook up my own hardware and make my own decision to release TiVo's full potential with services that I want as an individual

Because that is not the way Virgin Media operate. I'm also not aware of TiVo selling any UK cable compatible boxes directly.

If you want to buy your own box, there are plenty of alternatives such as Freesat from Sky, Freesat, Freeview and YouView

Originally Posted by heeleybobs

You will see things been activated more frequently when BT's Infinity project is complete and there is direct competition in the works, the service won't be as exclusive as it has been up to now.

BT also don't allow you to hook up your own TV hardware, or have access to potential features not part of the official service

[heeleybobs]

I think the problem is rights, and I suspect part of that problem is Sky. Sky have proved very good at agreeing contracts with channels that then prevent those channels offering anything to other platforms that might put Sky at a disadvantage. Tivo To Go would certainly put Sky at a disadvantage as they can't (AFAIK) offer anything to compete.

I'll be honest that is speculation though.

You make a very valid point here and although it is speculation, I do agree with it and SKY is something I never considered regarding contractually locking rights down for other providers.

It's interesting that you bought up Apple (and the iPhone) as they were recently punished for selling the iPad 3 as a 4G capable device worldwide when it isn't.

OK, maybe not the best choice of brand to use as an example given the whole 4G misleading story, but was just given as an example. In respect of blocking the services I mentioned though would be very easy by just deactivating a port on the network protocol. But the mass competition of mobile providers stops this to remain competitive.

[carlwaring]

Originally Posted by heeleybobs

There is no such thing as "TiVo US"...

Really?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TiVo,_Inc.

Tivo, Inc. (NASDAQ: TIVO) is an American corporation whose primary product is the marketing and subscription services for its Tivo branded digital video recorder.

Originally Posted by heeleybobs

Please do take time to educate yourself first.

My Irony-o-meter just exploded