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Old 24-09-2017, 10:36   #211
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Re: Brexit discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy J View Post
The brexit claims were just outright lies. The truth is no one on that campaign had any idea what leaving would really mean.
And what were the Remain camp lies ?

Of course people knew what leave meant. I did and expect the result to be enacted because that is what democracy decided.

---------- Post added at 09:36 ---------- Previous post was at 09:32 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K View Post
Problem is Den people don't like to admit they've been conned, hence the head in the sand attitude from many. Those that spun these lies are well insulated from the affects of Brexit; Joe Public are the ones who will suffer. The outcome might well be we are still in the EU in all but name, paying for the single market, with free movement but we have no say or influence. Did people really know what they were voting for or did they just read the latest tabloid immigration headline ?
As usual, one sided rubbish.

I see you are incapable of offering an opinion on the Remain camp lies. It's typical Groundhog Day hypocrisy from Mr K.
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Old 24-09-2017, 10:37   #212
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Re: Brexit discussion

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Originally Posted by Mick View Post
And what were the Remain camp lies ?

Of course people knew what leave meant. I did and expect the result to be enacted because that is what democracy decided.
Well we all know you are omniscient but the vast majority of those voting had no idea what was really at issue and they still don't.
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Old 24-09-2017, 10:40   #213
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Re: Brexit discussion

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Originally Posted by RizzyKing View Post
Oh fgs nobody i know or have seen on the internet took the £350 million thing as a major aspect of how or why they voted as they did it was a silly claim but it was one silly claim amongst many many others as much by remain as anyone else war, collapse of europe which everyone on the remain side seems to have forgotten about which is funny given the total clarity they have on the stupid £350 million claim.
Derek Cummings credited the £350m pw claim as winning the referendum. He headed up Vote Leave.
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Old 24-09-2017, 10:43   #214
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Re: Brexit discussion

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Originally Posted by Damien View Post
I don't participate too much on this thread because it's rehashing old arguments but people were defending the £350 million claim so I commented that it is indeed false.
No it is not false. That figure varies and it is a gross figure. Forget about net figure, in 2022/23, we would be sending around 376M a week, gross contribution. This is what MPs (No not Just Boris) say is the gross figure, key word is "gross".

---------- Post added at 09:43 ---------- Previous post was at 09:40 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy J View Post
Well we all know you are omniscient but the vast majority of those voting had no idea what was really at issue and they still don't.
Well nothing, what about the Remain lies issue, which you have conveniently decided not to give an opinion on ?
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Old 24-09-2017, 10:44   #215
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Re: Brexit discussion

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Originally Posted by Mick View Post
I see you are incapable of offering an opinion on the Remain camp lies. It's typical Groundhog Day hypocrisy from Mr K.
We are in 2017 and discussing Boris's Telegraph 2017 article. Why on earth do we need to re-hash 2016; we've done it to death and I'm sure Mr K's responses to these points are there after a bit of searching.
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Old 24-09-2017, 10:51   #216
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Re: Brexit discussion

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Originally Posted by 1andrew1 View Post
Derek Cummings credited the £350m pw claim as winning the referendum. He headed up Vote Leave.
There is no way he would possibly know. It would be impossible to know what swayed people to vote the way they did, there was such an influential and aggressive campaign tactics partaken by BOTH sides.
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Old 24-09-2017, 10:52   #217
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Re: Brexit discussion

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Originally Posted by RizzyKing View Post
Oh fgs nobody i know or have seen on the internet took the £350 million thing as a major aspect of how or why they voted as they did it was a silly claim but it was one silly claim amongst many many others as much by remain as anyone else war, collapse of europe which everyone on the remain side seems to have forgotten about which is funny given the total clarity they have on the stupid £350 million claim.
Nearly 50% of the public believed that "claim"

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7085016.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 View Post
Derek Cummings credited the £350m pw claim as winning the referendum. He headed up Vote Leave.
I'd say he'd probably right, pretty crass admission to, basically saying they hoodwinked the vote
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Old 24-09-2017, 10:54   #218
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Re: Brexit discussion

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Originally Posted by Mick View Post
No it is not false. That figure varies and it is a gross figure. Forget about net figure, in 2022/23, we would be sending around 376M a week, gross contribution. This is what MPs (No not Just Boris) say is the gross figure, key word is "gross".[COLOR="Silver"]

Take it up with the head of the UK's Statistics Authority Mick, he thinks it's 'a clear misuse of statistics', strong words for a civil servant. He seems to know a thing or two about numbers where as Boris has a second class degree in ancient literature and classical philosophy - useful that....
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Old 24-09-2017, 11:05   #219
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Re: Brexit discussion

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Originally Posted by RizzyKing View Post
I see you avoided commenting on the remain lies that haven't happened Andrew continuing to flog your favourite dead horse but then your always happy to ignore things that don't suit your agenda. In or out things were never gauranteed and both have their risks but being out means the UK government is in a position to do whats best for the UK and only that now if only we could get some decent politicians.
Let's start on a positive note - I agree on the bit in bold!
I'm discussing 2017 not 2016 and I've responded previously to all these points last year. You will find that I am keener on impartial fact-checking sources and less so opinion pieces in the billionaire-owned Brexit press. Damien does a great job on evaluating sources and we can all learn from him.
It was a positive thing for democracy in this country that Sir David Norgrove, the Statistics Regulator, corrected the claims that Boris made this year and a pity Boris still hasn't learnt from 2016.
However, when a pro-Brexit source was turfed up to discredit Norgrove, I only felt it fair to state what the independent fact-checking source said. Not The Guardian or The Mirror but an independent fact-checking site. I feel that's a constructive thing to do but obviously some people don't.
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Old 24-09-2017, 11:08   #220
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Re: Brexit discussion

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Originally Posted by 1andrew1 View Post
We are in 2017 and discussing Boris's Telegraph 2017 article. Why on earth do we need to re-hash 2016; we've done it to death and I'm sure Mr K's responses to these points are there after a bit of searching.
Oh now you throw in the "Done to death" issue, when it suits I suppose.

And as for your last point regarding your buddy, Mr K, he regurgitates the same negative rhetorics daily, I certainly have no desire or inclination to search such posts, ever.

---------- Post added at 10:08 ---------- Previous post was at 10:06 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy View Post
Nearly 50% of the public believed that "claim"

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7085016.html



I'd say he'd probably right, pretty crass admission to, basically saying they hoodwinked the vote
And how many "Remain" votes were hoodwinked by Remain camp lies and deceit?
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Old 24-09-2017, 11:21   #221
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Re: Brexit discussion

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Originally Posted by TheDaddy View Post
I'd say he'd probably right, pretty crass admission to, basically saying they hoodwinked the vote
I kind of prefer his honesty in this respect over Boris's approach. Then again, he's not seeking re-election whilst Boris probably will be and may even run for PM.

---------- Post added at 10:14 ---------- Previous post was at 10:10 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick View Post
Oh now you throw in the "Done to death" issue, when it suits I suppose.
Not really, it's constructive debate ie focusing on the issue in hand and trying to analyse both sides rather than revisiting some general argument about Remain v Leave from 18 months ago!

---------- Post added at 10:21 ---------- Previous post was at 10:14 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien View Post
The £350 million claim is highly misleading at best and a lie at worst. We don't send that and we control the money we do not send. The only people who claim it to be true are the Brexit camp.

Full Fact say it's false: https://fullfact.org/europe/350-mill...hority-misuse/
The UK Statistics Authority say it's false.
The Institute for Fiscal Studies say it's false: https://www.channel4.com/news/factch...-week-brussels

Even the Brexit-supporting Telegraph weren't defending it: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/eu...-fact-checked/

Now Boris chose his words carefully to say 'control' rather than the 'spend' they used in the referendum but I think that's just a typical weasel way politicians word things in order to seem like they're promising something they're not. 'Controlling' this money means nothing if 1) it's not really there and 2) you can't spend it.
In a face-to-face discussion, if someone raised this amount of evidence then the person arguing against it would concede that they are wrong and we'd shake hands, be friends and prepare our ground better for the next discussion.
I really find it a bit awkward that this doesn't seem to happen on online forums
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Old 24-09-2017, 11:24   #222
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Re: Brexit discussion

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Originally Posted by 1andrew1 View Post
I kind of prefer his honesty in this respect over Boris's approach. Then again, he's not seeking re-election whilst Boris probably will be and may even run for PM.

---------- Post added at 10:14 ---------- Previous post was at 10:10 ----------

Not really, it's constructive debate ie focusing on the issue in hand and trying to analyse both sides rather than revisiting some general argument about Remain v Leave from 18 months ago!
I would prefer your honesty, as I would do from other Remainers, yours and their views on the Remain camp lies.

I've brought this issue up several times now and conveniently, none of you have offered an opinion on them. Why is that ?
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Old 24-09-2017, 11:33   #223
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Re: Brexit discussion

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Originally Posted by Mick View Post
As usual, one sidedness rears its ugly head.

I repeat, it is not a lie. The UK gives the EU a "gross" contribution of £350 million a week, of that amount, most of it which "could" be spent on the NHS if the UK Government so wished. These are usually touted as lies, but this stems from ‘Remainers' being unable to tell the difference between the words ‘gross’ and ‘net’ as well as the difference between the words ‘could’ and ‘will’.

But if we want to discuss voter influence, no problem, as for lies, there were plenty told by Remain campaign...

Such as....
  • David Cameron implied in a speech about the “serried rows of white headstones” that World War 3 would be upon us if Brexit occurred.
  • European Council President Donald Tusk, said western political civilisation would be destroyed if the UK voted ‘Leave.
  • George Osborne predicted tax rises and spending cuts would be implemented in an emergency budget straight after referendum if leave won.
  • “A dangerous fantasy” is how Nick Clegg described Nigel Farage’s claim of EU plans to create an army. Barely three months on from the Referendum, Juncker had proposed an EU Army.
  • David Cameron said he wouldn’t resign as Prime Minister if he lost the Referendum vote. He said at a PM questions session when asked if he would be around to enact the result of the referendum on June 24th. He replied "Yes.".
  • President Obama indicated we would be at the back of the queue if leave won, this was single handed, the most dirty trick the Remain camp used to try sway votes, but I actually think Obama convinced more Brits to vote leave. Either way, by the time brexit happens he would no longer be the serving President, perhaps he was hoping for Crooked Hillary to do his bidding, had she actually won, after his departure.

    Perhaps this not a lie but more of a big issue allowing a foreign leader to influence a British Democratic Process. We can see how upset the US got when it does not like foreign countries influencing their election process. Why should we not feel aggrieved at Obama's intervention during our referendum ?

How many of the above lies attributed to the undecided folks going with voting Remain....?

So I'm sorry, this voter influence works both ways I'm afraid.

Quite, it'a absolutely laughable that anyone could try to claim that the combined might of the PM, Chancellor and most of the cabinet, plus huge swathes of the media including the BBC and their project fear had no undue influence on how people voted. How many people were scared off voting to get out because they believed the nonsense about emergency budgets, imminent tax rises, blah blah blah. To compare all of that to a statement on the side of a campaign bus just goes to show the paucity of their argument and the depths of credibility they'll plumb in order to get what they want. Pathetic garbage. I'd have more respect if they were just honest and admitted they'd do anything to change the outcome.
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Old 24-09-2017, 11:35   #224
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Re: Brexit discussion

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Originally Posted by Mick View Post
No it is not false. That figure varies and it is a gross figure. Forget about net figure, in 2022/23, we would be sending around 376M a week, gross contribution. This is what MPs (No not Just Boris) say is the gross figure, key word is "gross".

---------- Post added at 09:43 ---------- Previous post was at 09:40 ----------



Well nothing, what about the Remain lies issue, which you have conveniently decided not to give an opinion on ?
Well which lies in particular?
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Old 24-09-2017, 11:35   #225
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Re: Brexit discussion

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Originally Posted by Mick View Post
I would prefer your honesty, as I would do from other Remainers, yours and their views on the Remain camp lies.

I've brought this issue up several times now and conveniently, none of you have offered an opinion on them. Why is that ?
We know why it is. Because their whole argument about the what the money saved would be spent on is based on a falsehood. If they admit that they have nothing.
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