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[Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
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Old 26-07-2017, 21:06   #46
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Re: Petrol & diesel vehicles ban.

Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf View Post
62 miles) on a full battery and can be fully charged in three to four hours.

so lands end to john o'groats how many days will that take
l am sure Kursk will come out with some sort of one eyed response by the end of the night.
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Old 26-07-2017, 21:12   #47
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Re: Petrol & diesel vehicles ban.

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Originally Posted by Damien View Post
Well electric cars would work differently. It's important with new technology not to apply existing patterns to them, at least not always.

At the moment people generally only fill up their car at petrol stations. You fill up, then go away keeping the occasional eye on the tank until you need to fill up again. But electric cars can be charged at home and also could be charged at car parks, work places, shopping centres etc. I have seen far more car chargers in car parks than dedicated stations. People will find themselves charging at home, at a hotel, or in car parks whilst shopping or working. Stations would be for quick top-ups or people taking long journeys.

But battery technology will get better and so will charing times. Again, look at the progress Tesla have made. It's not perfect now but do we need to wait until it is before we make plans 20 years ahead? The wheels are already turning here, more and more cars are coming out with electric engines, the investment is in electric and self-driving cars and that's where governments are looking too.

To be honest I think 2040 is conservative. I think we'll be seeing electric, self-driving, cars in common use around urban areas by then. 23 years is a long time in technology. Imagine in 1994 telling someone that people could stream TV content made exclusively for an Internet company to a phone they had in their hands. Think of all the logistical and technological, not to mention commercial, barriers that would have been foreseen. The advances is mobile technology, battery technology, networks and so on for that and all the infrastructure to go with it.
Go Damien! You are rocking with this . An item on the news mentioned charging points installed on lamposts. It is going to happen. It is happening. We can be ahead of the game on this if everyone gets into the right mindset.

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Originally Posted by denphone View Post
l am sure Kursk will come out with some sort of one eyed response by the end of the night.
And perhaps the answer is that you will collect fully-charged batteries along the way rather than charging the one you have? Think Old chap, think. Or maybe a lorry will carry more fully-charged batteries with them? Doh.

Last edited by Kursk; 26-07-2017 at 21:26.
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Old 26-07-2017, 21:33   #48
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Re: Petrol & diesel vehicles ban.

and once we go electric first class post will be about 10 days depending on queues at the plug socket
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Old 26-07-2017, 21:41   #49
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Re: Petrol & diesel vehicles ban.

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Originally Posted by papa smurf View Post
and once we go electric first class post will be about 10 days depending on queues at the plug socket
You better tell that to your favourite poster as they are getting rather rose tinted as usual.
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Old 26-07-2017, 22:05   #50
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Re: Petrol & diesel vehicles ban.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien View Post
Slowly over time. Tesla have some stations in the UK already: https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/findus#/...er&name=Europe And in some car parks there are ones not provided by Tesla (which outnumber Telsa whose presence is rather small).

But as more and more cars move to electric engines we'll see more stations pop-up. Petrol stations could provide them. It will at some stage hit a tipping point where they're suddenly springing up everywhere. We got 3G and 4G networks up in 16 years.

Yes at the moment having to 'rely totally' on them isn't realistic but we're not talking about banning petrol cars tomorrow, we're talking about banning them in 23 years.



That would be annoying but no reason to stop this progression. It's not if there are not problems with petrol with the pollution and the inflexibility as to it's source and provisioning. We already put critical dependencies on systems that require electricity so it's not an unheard of problem.

Can petrol stations actually work with no electricity now? Isn't it required for the tracking of the dispensing of the fuel and the payment of it?
I was referring to power cuts affecting those who're at home trying to charge their vehicles overnight which is I'm sure what most people would want to do if they couldn't do it at work.
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Old 26-07-2017, 22:10   #51
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Re: Petrol & diesel vehicles ban.

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Originally Posted by Osem View Post
I was referring to power cuts affecting those who're at home trying to charge their vehicles overnight which is I'm sure what most people would want to do if they couldn't do it at work.
Well then yes an overnight power cut would be a problem if they didn't have any charge left in the car but it doesn't seem a deal breaker. You can get an unfortunate series of events with many things, a power cut that lasts overnight when you really needed to charge the car would be one of them.

Last edited by Damien; 26-07-2017 at 22:19.
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Old 26-07-2017, 22:26   #52
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Re: Petrol & diesel vehicles ban.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien View Post
Well then yes an overnight power cut would be a problem if they didn't have any charge left in the car but it doesn't seem a deal breaker. You can get an unfortunate series of events with many things, a power cut that lasts overnight when you really needed to charge the car would be one of them.
So before you set out on a journey in your eleccymobile you need to know you have enough juice to make it or factor in detours and a lot of hanging around before and that includes considering whether to put the aircon or heating on. Is that progress? We don't know what progress is going to be made or how much these things are going to cost but does anyone really believe they're going to be better and no more expensive than the vehicles they're replacing? I don't. I recall being told diesel was a great and now I'm being penalised for what the so called experts led us to believe. I have every expectation that the same thing will happen again and that the rush to electric will wind up costing a whole lot more than we imagine.
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Old 26-07-2017, 22:30   #53
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Re: Petrol & diesel vehicles ban.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien View Post
Well then yes an overnight power cut would be a problem if they didn't have any charge left in the car but it doesn't seem a deal breaker. You can get an unfortunate series of events with many things, a power cut that lasts overnight when you really needed to charge the car would be one of them.
Owners could retain a fully-charged back up battery for such an emegency.

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Originally Posted by Osem View Post
So before you set out on a journey in your eleccymobile you need to know you have enough juice to make it or factor in detours and a lot of hanging around before and that includes considering whether to put the aircon or heating on. Is that progress? We don't know what progress is going to be made or how much these things are going to cost but does anyone really believe they're going to be better and no more expensive than the vehicles they're replacing? I don't. I recall being told diesel was a great and now I'm being penalised for what the so called experts led us to believe. I have every expectation that the same thing will happen again and that the rush to electric will wind up costing a whole lot more than we imagine.
You're (understandably) focussing on the expense; the reason for the change is to reduce pollution and save lives.

Last edited by Kursk; 26-07-2017 at 22:35.
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Old 26-07-2017, 22:39   #54
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Re: Petrol & diesel vehicles ban.

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Originally Posted by Kursk View Post
Owners could retain a fully-charged back up battery for such an emegency.



You're (understandably) focussing on the expense; the reason for the change is to reduce pollution and save lives.
Battery Specs
Type Laminated lithium-ion battery
Voltage 403.2V [1]
Nominal voltage 360V [2]
Total capacity 24 kWh [2] (16 kWh available, 67% DoD [3], 21 kWh declared [4])
Power output Over 90 kW
Energy density 140 Wh/kg [5]
Power density 2.5 kW/kg [5]
Dimensions 61.8 x 46.8 x 10.4 in. (1570.5 x 1188 x 264.9 mm) [1]
Weight 648 lbs [6]
Number of modules 48, each with four cells (total 192 cells) [7][2]
Battery pack contents:
Positive electrodes: lithium manganate
Negative electrodes: carbon
Cells
Modules
Assembly parts
Charging times:
Quick charger DC50kW (0 to 80%): approx. 30 min (Level 3 charging)
Home-use AC240V charging dock (0-100%): 8 hrs (Level 2 charging) [8]
Regular 110/120V 15-amp outlet: 22 hours (Level 1 charging) [9]
Battery layout Under seat & floor

oh yes very practical lugging 648 lbs of lithium battery around
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Old 26-07-2017, 22:39   #55
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Re: Petrol & diesel vehicles ban.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem View Post
So before you set out on a journey in your eleccymobile you need to know you have enough juice to make it or factor in detours and a lot of hanging around before and that includes considering whether to put the aircon or heating on. Is that progress? We don't know what progress is going to be made or how much these things are going to cost but does anyone really believe they're going to be better and no more expensive than the vehicles they're replacing? I don't. I recall being told diesel was a great and now I'm being penalised for what the so called experts led us to believe.
Personally I think self-driving cars will take a good bulk of general driving tasks by 2040 but that's a different debate.

Are electric cars progress? I think so. I think for the most part they'll match fuel cars in every aspect but the speed of refuelling but that will be negated by the ability to charge in far more places whilst the car is parked and better battery technology. I think by 2025-2030 they'll be able to recharge hundreds of miles worth of electricity in a few minutes.

I don't think they'll cost more/less than current cars. They'll come down in price when they're more common but the market will dictate the price and probably come down around the same as now plus inflation.

But they'll beat fuel cars on being better for the environment and they'll allow more flexible energy policy as we wouldn't need to depend on oil specifically. Obviously that depends how we generate the electricity which is the bigger question here. We need to start building another nuclear power plant or two. From my understanding there is also less that can go wrong with an electric engine than a petrol one, no oil changes, less parts to break and so on.

Last edited by Damien; 26-07-2017 at 22:46.
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Old 26-07-2017, 22:44   #56
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Re: Petrol & diesel vehicles ban.

Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf View Post
Battery Specs
Type Laminated lithium-ion battery
Voltage 403.2V [1]
Nominal voltage 360V [2]
Total capacity 24 kWh [2] (16 kWh available, 67% DoD [3], 21 kWh declared [4])
Power output Over 90 kW
Energy density 140 Wh/kg [5]
Power density 2.5 kW/kg [5]
Dimensions 61.8 x 46.8 x 10.4 in. (1570.5 x 1188 x 264.9 mm) [1]
Weight 648 lbs [6]
Number of modules 48, each with four cells (total 192 cells) [7][2]
Battery pack contents:
Positive electrodes: lithium manganate
Negative electrodes: carbon
Cells
Modules
Assembly parts
Charging times:
Quick charger DC50kW (0 to 80%): approx. 30 min (Level 3 charging)
Home-use AC240V charging dock (0-100%): 8 hrs (Level 2 charging) [8]
Regular 110/120V 15-amp outlet: 22 hours (Level 1 charging) [9]
Battery layout Under seat & floor

oh yes very practical lugging 648 lbs of lithium battery around
I'm confident a focussed motor industry will improve current spec and performance. Remember when a basic computer filled a room? Now it's in your pocket. Wasn't that long ago.

Last edited by Kursk; 26-07-2017 at 22:48.
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Old 26-07-2017, 23:08   #57
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Re: Petrol & diesel vehicles ban.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kursk View Post
I'm confident a focussed motor industry will improve current spec and performance. Remember when a basic computer filled a room? Now it's in your pocket. Wasn't that long ago.
I'd call 60 years quite long ago as far as people are concerned.
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Old 26-07-2017, 23:16   #58
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Re: Petrol & diesel vehicles ban.

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Originally Posted by Paul M View Post
I'd call 60 years quite long ago as far as people are concerned.
Still the modern iPhone is orders of magnitude faster than a bulky pc tower from 1994. And we're already building electric cars from little city runners such as the Nissan Leaf to sports cars from Tesla. Volvo are looking to make their line electric by 2020. Most other companies are looking to at least bring electric engines in their popular cars (Fiesta, Peugeot 208, BMW Mini etc) by 2020 too. The Golf already has done this.

We're well on the way already. Think what it could be like in 20 years after two decades of full time commitment from car and technology companies!
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Old 27-07-2017, 01:15   #59
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Re: Petrol & diesel vehicles ban.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien View Post
We're well on the way already.
Indeed. In computing, drip feeding gives the impression of slower development (maximising profit being the holy grail).

Electric automotive development is about to move in strides, we can be sure of that.
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Old 27-07-2017, 08:33   #60
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Re: Petrol & diesel vehicles ban.

Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf View Post
go jump off a cliff
To keep it on topic can I suggest he cycle of one instead

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kursk View Post
I hate bad losers
Me to, can't wait till we're all zero emitters and therefore all have to pay to use the road, the whining then will be joyous and may even make up for the lack of enjoyment driving will become or has already become I should say.
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