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Catalonia Independence
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Old 02-10-2017, 11:29   #46
Osem
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Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins

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Originally Posted by Damien View Post
Hopefully it remains calm for now but I think the Spanish authorities have given the Catalan independence cause a massive boost and that won't go away. They should have ignored the vote which, having been 'illegal', would have been treated by many as a juvenile and divisive PR stunt.

Instead they've given the Catalan cause a massive boost and more public sympathy across Europe and the World. It's unbelievable how they, a modern first world democracy, have acted. They should be ashamed at the images that have been broadcast around the world. The Spanish Prime Minster should have resigned over it.

Can you imagine if we had acted like that against Scotland? It probably wouldn't have happened as the SNP mostly shunned such a stunt and sought a legal democratic vote which Westminister in turn granted but if we had sent riot police to beat people trying to vote then Independence in Scotland would surely be a foregone conclusion and rightly so.


I really can't see why Madrid felt this was an appropriate option but as it is the whole world is now aware of the situation and in terms of PR, the Spanish have done themselves no good at all and the Eurocrats still don't seem to be saying much about anything. I recall Juncker commenting on post Brexit hate crimes against Polish migrants in the UK so why he feels he can't say something about this (presuming he still hasn't) is beyond me.

https://euobserver.com/political/139230

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Last edited by Osem; 02-10-2017 at 11:49.
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Old 02-10-2017, 12:22   #47
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Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins

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Originally Posted by Osem View Post
I recall Juncker commenting on post Brexit hate crimes against Polish migrants in the UK so why he feels he can't say something about this (presuming he still hasn't) is beyond me.
That's not an internal UK matter, this is an internal Spanish matter.

It's very difficult. On the one hand the usual suspects complain about EU leaders and institutions 'meddling' in Catalonia:

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/...European-Union

Quote:
‘Those are the rules’ Meddling EU bosses try to HALT Catalan referendum with threats

MEDDLING European Union officials continue to bury their nose into domestic affairs as the Catalan government pushes forward with its plans for an independence referendum on leaving Spain.
On the other hand those same usual suspects complain about the EU not getting involved.

https://twitter.com/JuliaHB1/status/914449418446917637

I would mention Dan Hannan's response to her, which was also shredded, but as seems the in-thing for him now he deleted it and Politwoops hasn't caught up yet.

https://www.politwoops.eu/p/unknown/DanielJHannan/

Everyone's favourite Belgian, Guy Verhofstadt, has made some comments.

Quote:
I don't want to interfere in the domestic issues of Spain but I absolutely condemn what happened today in Catalonia.

On one hand, the separatist parties went forward with a so-called referendum that was forbidden by the Constitutional Court, knowing all too well that only a minority would participate as 60 % of the Catalans are against separation.

And on the other hand - even when based on court decisions - the use of disproportionate violence to stop this.

In the European Union we try to find solutions through political dialogue and with respect for the constitutional order as enshrined in the Treaties, especially in art. 4.

It's high time for de-escalation. Only a negotiated solution in which all political parties, including the opposition in the Catalan Parliament, are involved and with respect for the Constitutional and legal order of the country, is the way forward.
There must be consequences for Spain regarding this. It shouldn't be a shock to anyone that the European Union is taking its time over formulating a response.
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Old 03-10-2017, 11:17   #48
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Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins

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A general strike threatens to bring large areas of Catalonia to a standstill, following the Spanish region's disputed referendum.
The strike was called by Catalan trade unions and associations due to "the grave violation of rights and freedoms" seen during Sunday's ballot.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41479048

Was listening to this on the world service earlier and it certainly seems as though the appalling reaction of Madrid towards those who were trying to vote has indeed united many people on both sides of the argument in that region.

The fact that there haven't been angry reprisals says a lot about the people involved and only serves to further highlight the difference between their approach and Madrid's. Let's all hope the violence has ended.
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Old 04-10-2017, 20:58   #49
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Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins

Beware Big Brother is Beating You... As for the limp EU the only comment from them will be to condone any violence.
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Old 05-10-2017, 14:25   #50
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Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins

Latest From Reuters News Agency: Spanish Prime Minister Rajoy, has called on Catalonia President to abandon his plans for Independence to avoid "Greater Evils".
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Old 05-10-2017, 14:28   #51
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Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins

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Originally Posted by Mick View Post
Latest From Reuters News Agency: Spanish Prime Minister Rajoy, has called on Catalonia President to abandon his plans for Independence to avoid "Greater Evils".
Still looks like independence will be declared as early as Monday.
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Old 05-10-2017, 14:31   #52
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Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins

I am just wondering what he means by the term, "Greater evils", is this more police brutality via a Spanish government declaring martial law ?
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Old 05-10-2017, 14:37   #53
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Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins

Civil war?
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Old 05-10-2017, 15:04   #54
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Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins

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Originally Posted by richard s View Post
Beware Big Brother is Beating You... As for the limp EU the only comment from them will be to condone any violence.
You mean condemn, right?

So as it turns out despite being the superstate EUSSR controlling everything about member states and leaving them zero sovereignty the EU don't actually have any competency in this.

While the Treaty of Lisbon makes references to consequences there doesn't appear to be any legal basis - it's an aspiration only.

Internal Spanish matter to be attended to according to their own sovereign laws and constitution. EU can express dismay and nothing else. As with everything else they're law-bound and there are a bunch of processes to follow.
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Old 05-10-2017, 15:09   #55
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Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins

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Originally Posted by Damien View Post
Civil war?
That is what I foresee as the biggest risk if they go ahead. Will the Basques ally with them?

---------- Post added at 14:09 ---------- Previous post was at 14:07 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignitionnet View Post
You mean condemn, right?

So as it turns out despite being the superstate EUSSR controlling everything about member states and leaving them zero sovereignty the EU don't actually have any competency in this.

While the Treaty of Lisbon makes references to consequences there doesn't appear to be any legal basis - it's an aspiration only.

Internal Spanish matter to be attended to according to their own sovereign laws and constitution. EU can express dismay and nothing else. As with everything else they're law-bound and there are a bunch of processes to follow.
e.g. Useless so why have them?
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Old 05-10-2017, 15:10   #56
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Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins

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Originally Posted by Ignitionnet View Post
You mean condemn, right?

So as it turns out despite being the superstate EUSSR controlling everything about member states and leaving them zero sovereignty the EU don't actually have any competency in this.

While the Treaty of Lisbon makes references to consequences there doesn't appear to be any legal basis - it's an aspiration only.

Internal Spanish matter to be attended to according to their own sovereign laws and constitution. EU can express dismay and nothing else. As with everything else they're law-bound and there are a bunch of processes to follow.
The EU IS incompetent thanks for the heads up
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Old 05-10-2017, 15:23   #57
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Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins

This is going to get even more nasty very soon...

More News coming from Reuters: Spanish Constitutional Court has suspended The Catalan Parliament Session, which had been planned for Monday...
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Old 05-10-2017, 15:32   #58
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Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins

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Originally Posted by pip08456 View Post
e.g. Useless so why have them?
I have no idea why those provisions are there. Best guess because if they do become EU competencies the provisions are ready to permit taking action.

You'd need to ask whomever drafted those articles what they had in mind. I fully imagine there are a few things in Lisbon that are redundant and no-one found them concerning enough to amend them.

One thing that couldn't be said about the European Union is that they aren't bureaucratic - they are bureaucratic to a fault but it's probably the only way to do what they do.
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Old 05-10-2017, 15:39   #59
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Re: Catalonia Independence

Quote:
After watching the horrible footage of the Spanish goons and thugs beating up voters, I waited for a few words of condemnation from the European Union.

I waited and I waited. None came.

Indeed, the EU pledged its support for Spain’s Prime Minister and insisted the referendum was illegal.

Not a word of criticism.

Not much the EU does these days shocks me. But this really shocked me.
That it could tacitly approve of such violence against its own citizens who wanted only self-determination.

And yet I was wrong to be shocked, I suppose.

Because over the years the EU has shown a truly fascistic ruthlessness in persecuting those who disagree with its objectives.
Rod Liddle's piece
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Old 05-10-2017, 15:46   #60
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Re: Catalonia Independence

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Originally Posted by heero_yuy View Post
Having spent years complaining about EU 'meddling in state affairs' Rod Liddle suddenly decides the EU should meddle in state affairs.

Cynical, opportunistic. Rod Liddle is no more credible on the EU than Jean-Claude Juncker and both should be treated with disdain as extremists.
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