HD : BBC Parliament coming to BBC2.

[OLD BOY]

Yes, but up until 4am, 5 USA broadcasts programmes like Rookie Blue. Looking at AMC, on Tuesday for example, they have the following schedule:

1.25am The Walking Dead
2.25 Breaking Bad
3.30-5.30 Grey's Anatomy

The popular Universal channel has:

2.05am Major Crimes
3.00-5.00 Numb3rs

So it can't really be such a problem, can it?

As I said ... channels that buy content produced elsewhere, have the when/how often/for how long written into the deal. The BBC is a producer and broadcaster of first-run material and its licences and fees reflect that.

Also, as I said ... it is not a "problem" in the sense of whether it can be done or not. It is a problem in the sense of whether it is cost effective for the BBC to do it, also taking its public service status into account.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Chris

As I said ... channels that buy content produced elsewhere, have the when/how often/for how long written into the deal. The BBC is a producer and broadcaster of first-run material and its licences and fees reflect that.

Also, as I said ... it is not a "problem" in the sense of whether it can be done or not. It is a problem in the sense of whether it is cost effective for the BBC to do it, also taking its public service status into account.

...And as I said, the BBC could write such provisions into their contracts. It's no big deal, IMHO.

If the BBC is that worried about saving money, they could just close BBC1 and 2 down after 2am rather than simply duplicate what their other channels are doing.

[RichardCoulter]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

...And as I said, the BBC could write such provisions into their contracts. It's no big deal, IMHO.

If the BBC is that worried about saving money, they could just close BBC1 and 2 down after 2am rather than simply duplicate what their other channels are doing.

They couldn't completely close down like they used to in the old days without switching off the whole mux.

If you didn't mean that they should close down completely, simulcasting this sort of material is more beneficial and just as cheap as showing a caption or the testcard!

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

...And as I said, the BBC could write such provisions into their contracts. It's no big deal, IMHO.

Of course they could. But they haven't.

Why do *you* think that is?

If the BBC is that worried about saving money, they could just close BBC1 and 2 down after 2am rather than simply duplicate what their other channels are doing.

Actually they couldn't. A digital broadcast frequency carries several channels as a multiplex. You can't "close down" one of them. You can only close down the whole multiplex. Seeing as the multiplex continues to broadcast, that slice of it that carries BBC2 might as well carry something. Given that the BBC's contracts with its performers and other suppliers are what they are, the most useful thing they can do is advertise their less well used digital channels by airing them where (a few) more people will see them.

---------- Post added at 20:15 ---------- Previous post was at 20:11 ----------

... which Richard has already just said.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Chris

Of course they could. But they haven't.

Why do *you* think that is?



Actually they couldn't. A digital broadcast frequency carries several channels as a multiplex. You can't "close down" one of them. You can only close down the whole multiplex. Seeing as the multiplex continues to broadcast, that slice of it that carries BBC2 might as well carry something. Given that the BBC's contracts with its performers and other suppliers are what they are, the most useful thing they can do is advertise their less well used digital channels by airing them where (a few) more people will see them.

---------- Post added at 20:15 ---------- Previous post was at 20:11 ----------

... which Richard has already just said.

OK. Let's just ignore the fact that BBC4 closes down every night at about 4am until 7pm next day, shall we? What a load of tosh!

[Chris James]

Originally Posted by RichardCoulter

Starting 5/9/16, BBC2 will be carrying BBC Parliament programming overnight.

Not sure if this is a simulcast, a selection of their programmes or whilst the US Presidential elections are on.

This will also give them the opportunity to show material in HD.

Thoughts?

I watch The Daily Politics (HD) sometimes and on Wednesday when it shows Prime Ministers Questions (during sittings) the pictures are not in HD from Parliament which is a bit of a surprise but there we are.

[RichardCoulter]

Originally Posted by Chris James

I watch The Daily Politics (HD) sometimes and on Wednesday when it shows Prime Ministers Questions (during sittings) the pictures are not in HD from Parliament which is a bit of a surprise but there we are.

Yep, as it stands all the pictures coming from the house of commons are in SD.

Some time ago I was sitting in one of the MP's offices. Each MP has a monitor with a live feed of the main chamber.

When I remarked about the old fashioned CRT SD monitors, I was told that it would be pointless to upgrade them as all the pictures received were in SD.

There was a suggestion that the delay in making a decision about upgrading was down to some MP's not wanting to be seen too closely in HD!

---------- Post added at 00:13 ---------- Previous post was at 00:10 ----------

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

OK. Let's just ignore the fact that BBC4 closes down every night at about 4am until 7pm next day, shall we? What a load of tosh!

In normal circumstances*, BBC4 shares it's capacity with the daytime channel CBeebies.

* This can change for things like the Olympics etc.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by RichardCoulter

Yep, as it stands all the pictures coming from the house of commons are in SD.

Some time ago I was sitting in one of the MP's offices. Each MP has a monitor with a live feed of the main chamber.

When I remarked about the old fashioned CRT SD monitors, I was told that it would be pointless to upgrade them as all the pictures received were in SD.

There was a suggestion that the delay in making a decision about upgrading was down to some MP's not wanting to be seen too closely in HD!

---------- Post added at 00:13 ---------- Previous post was at 00:10 ----------



In normal circumstances*, BBC4 shares it's capacity with the daytime channel CBeebies.

* This can change for things like the Olympics etc.

Yes, Richard, and I'm sure it can change for other reasons too! This is, I'm afraid, an argument about very little.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

OK. Let's just ignore the fact that BBC4 closes down every night at about 4am until 7pm next day, shall we? What a load of tosh!

Sigh ...

This is following a familiar pattern isn't it? You know, the one where you propose an idea, several people explain why it might not be practical, and then you just dig in and insist you're right.

First: please answer my question. You insist the BBC could repeat some of their entertainment shows overnight. Yet the fact is, they don't. You have rejected explanations that have been offered to you. So please, offer an explanation of your own. Why do you think they don't do it?

Second: both Richard and I explained what, in practical terms, "close down" means for a digital tv station. You either didn't bother to read it or you didn't understand it. Let me try again. A digital broadcast consists of several channels on one frequency. Even if all the staff of one channel switch off and go home for the night, the multiplex that carries their channel is still being transmitted, even if it carries no data for their channel. The service may "close down", however the actual broadcast of the frequency carrying the channel does not.

BBC4, seeing as we're talking about it, shares its portion of the broadcast multiplex with CBeebies, which operates daily from 6am to 7pm. So that portion of the multiplex is actually only unused for 2 hours every night. I doubt they think it's worthwhile simulcasting anything for those two hours. The hours from 4am are when even many of the channels that repeat shows overnight give up and switch to teleshopping.

May I finally repeat my main question: why do you think the BBC does not repeat its shows overnight on BBC1 and/or BBC2?

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Chris

Sigh ...

This is following a familiar pattern isn't it? You know, the one where you propose an idea, several people explain why it might not be practical, and then you just dig in and insist you're right.

First: please answer my question. You insist the BBC could repeat some of their entertainment shows overnight. Yet the fact is, they don't. You have rejected explanations that have been offered to you. So please, offer an explanation of your own. Why do you think they don't do it?

Second: both Richard and I explained what, in practical terms, "close down" means for a digital tv station. You either didn't bother to read it or you didn't understand it. Let me try again. A digital broadcast consists of several channels on one frequency. Even if all the staff of one channel switch off and go home for the night, the multiplex that carries their channel is still being transmitted, even if it carries no data for their channel. The service may "close down", however the actual broadcast of the frequency carrying the channel does not.

BBC4, seeing as we're talking about it, shares its portion of the broadcast multiplex with CBeebies, which operates daily from 6am to 7pm. So that portion of the multiplex is actually only unused for 2 hours every night. I doubt they think it's worthwhile simulcasting anything for those two hours. The hours from 4am are when even many of the channels that repeat shows overnight give up and switch to teleshopping.

May I finally repeat my main question: why do you think the BBC does not repeat its shows overnight on BBC1 and/or BBC2?

You are being pedantic in the extreme, Chris! You can use whatever term you like to describe it, but if it pleases you, let's say that BBC1 and 2 could carry 'no data' for their channel during the said wee small hours. Is that better? However, I think most would describe it as a 'close down' because in the past that's what the daily cessation of transmission has been called.

Of course, you are correct in saying that BBC4 shares with a children's channel, but your argument about the significance of closing down (as most would describe it) is made pointless when you admit that no data is sent for 2 hours after BBC4 ceases broadcasting for the night.

I have no idea why the Beeb chooses to simulcast rather than repeat all or some of its prime time viewing. The reasons you have given don't really hold water. If minor channels can do it, so can they. However, I am sure your creative talents will enable you to come up with some major barrier or other to a perfectly feasible suggestion. Strewth, I'm glad you're not in charge of the Brexit talks!

And there it is in a nutshell. You insist you have made a "perfectly feasible suggestion". Perhaps you think they've never thought about it? Maybe you could write in? They might even offer you a job.

[Horizon]

Ahh, another BBC thread.... shall I indulge myself? Hell yes!!

Firstly, on the original question, it seems the timing does coincide with the US Presidential elections. So yes, it is a good idea to simulcast BBC Parliament on BBC2 so that it can get the HD treatment.

But this thread has turned into a more what/how many channels should the BBC carry and what should be on them. More of that in a second...

On Chris'/Old Boy's discussion, if it were purely just a question of royalties/repeat fees which prevent the BBC repeating their prime time line up during the small hours, how does that explain iplayer?

Some dramas/comedies are on iplayer for 30 days and all the main ones are available for at least 7 days. So the BBC either pays for repeat fees on iplayer, or it doesn't. But either way, I see no reason why the BBC couldn't repeat their prime time schedule at night as its already on iplayer.

Back to the BBC and what channels they should have..... They should carry BBC Parliament, but this is not a true BBC channel as it is parliament rather than BBC produced content, so shouldn't count towards their channel count. As for the others...I would organise as follows:

BBC1 - Main channel showing general entertainment shows, drama, comedy, news bulletins, current affairs, factual and other mainstream genres.

BBC2 - Should go back to being what it was designed for, ie a spill over channel for BBC2. If sports need to be shown uninterrupted, they can go on this channel. As well as special event programming such as Stargazing Live. Pre-school shows would be a large part of the daytime schedule. Local/Regional news and shows feature in the evening. Open University fill other time slots.
BBC3 - Should be the kids/teens channel. Kids programming shown before school, then revert to Schools programming during the day, the kind that used to be on BBC2 (ie Look & Read), then kids shows resume after school and into the evening. Then around 8/9 pm it should become a teen channel with more experimental/risque content.

BBC4 - Should be the news/politics/factual/arts channel which can revert to a rolling news schedule, as and when needed. With specialist programmes on money & business, science & engineering, health & medicine, education, technology etc

All channels apart from BBC2 would be national channels and would show the same content across the UK. Only BBC2 would have different regional versions. That in itself would save the BBC a lot of transponder/DTT/cable carriage fees.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Chris

And there it is in a nutshell. You insist you have made a "perfectly feasible suggestion". Perhaps you think they've never thought about it? Maybe you could write in? They might even offer you a job.

Why make this so personal, Chris? It was a perfectly sensible proposal but as usual you find all these spurious reasons to rubbish it and then insist that your answer is final.

You still haven't explained why the smaller digital channels can afford to repeat prime time shows through the night but the Beeb, with more resources than anyone else cannot. But let's not let the obvious spoil the wrecking ball arguments that you tend to put forward to avoid anyone actually daring to contemplate change.

The best argument I have heard so far for the simulcast on BBC1 is that you can watch BBC Parliament in HD.

---------- Post added at 16:41 ---------- Previous post was at 16:39 ----------

Originally Posted by Horizon

Ahh, another BBC thread.... shall I indulge myself? Hell yes!!

Firstly, on the original question, it seems the timing does coincide with the US Presidential elections. So yes, it is a good idea to simulcast BBC parliament on BBC2 so that it can get the HD treatment.

But this thread has turned into a more what/how many channels should the BBC carry and what should be on them. More of that in a second...

On Chris'/Old Boy's discussion, if it were purely just a question of royalties/repeat fees which prevent the BBC repeating their prime time line up during the small hours, how does that explain iplayer?

Some dramas/comedies are on iplayer for 30 days and all the main ones are available for at least 7 days. So the BBC either pays for repeat fees on iplayer, or it doesn't. But either way, I see no reason why the BBC couldn't repeat their prime time schedule at night as its already on iplayer.

Back to the BBC and what channels they should have..... They should carry BBC Parliament, but this is not a true BBC channel as it is parliament rather than BBC produced content, so shouldn't count towards their channel count. As for the others...I would organise as follows:

BBC1 - Main channel showing general entertainment shows, drama, comedy, news bulletins, current affairs, factual and other mainstream genres.

BBC2 - Should go back to being what it was designed for, ie a spill over channel for BBC2. If sports need to be shown uninterrupted, they can go on this channel. As well as special event programming such as Stargazing Live. Pre-school shows would be a large part of the daytime schedule. Local/Regional news and shows feature in the evening. Open University fill other time slots.
BBC3 - Should be the kids/teens channel. Kids programming shown before school, then revert to Schools programming during the day, the kind that used to be on BBC2 (ie Look & Read), then kids shows resume after school and into the evening. Then around 8/9 pm it should become a teen channel with more experimental/risque content.

BBC4 - Should be the news/politics/factual/arts channel which can revert to a rolling news schedule, as and when needed. With specialist programmes on money & business, science & engineering, health & medicine, education, technology etc

All channels apart from BBC2 would be national channels and would show the same content across the UK. Only BBC2 would have different regional versions. That in itself would save the BBC a lot of transponder/DTT/cable carriage fees.

Thank you, Horizon, you have made some valid points here.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Why make this so personal, Chris? It was a perfectly sensible proposal but as usual you find all these spurious reasons to rubbish it and then insist that your answer is final.

You still haven't explained why the smaller digital channels can afford to repeat prime time shows through the night but the Beeb, with more resources than anyone else cannot. But let's not let the obvious spoil the wrecking ball arguments that you tend to put forward to avoid anyone actually daring to contemplate change.

The best argument I have heard so far for the simulcast on BBC1 is that you can watch BBC Parliament in HD.

Because I never said it was unaffordable - I simply pointed out that there was a cost that most people don't appreciate (repeat fees) whereas simulcasting current affairs content does not have that cost. The cost issue is nothing to do with breaking the bank. It's simply a matter of priorities. They choose not to spend money on repeating entertainment shows overnight in order to have more money for content at times of day when viewing figures will be higher. If the decision was cost neutral, and they thought they would serve more viewers, and they thought it would pass a public service value test, then they might decide to repeat their entertainment content overnight. But they haven't done that.

Your problem, as always, is that you find it hard to process the fact that different businesses, just like different people, have different priorities. Just because 5USA's business priority means funds are available to run repeats of its entertainment content overnight, it does not follow that the BBC's priorities are the same and their business decisions will be similar. Just because 5USA's business model aligns with your idea of what a broadcaster should be doing overnight, it does not follow that all of them must.

Final thought, I don't know what it's like on Freeview but Freesat carries a national variant of bbc2 in HD, so anyone watching BBC parliament at 4am on bbc2, on satellite at least, will be able to see it in HD.