Home News Forum Articles
  Welcome back Join CF
You are here You are here: Home | Forum | Eurozone will collapse...

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most of the discussions, articles and other free features. By joining our Virgin Media community you will have full access to all discussions, be able to view and post threads, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload your own images/photos, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please join our community today.


Welcome to Cable Forum
Go Back   Cable Forum > General Discussion > Current Affairs

Eurozone will collapse...
Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 26-05-2012, 13:12   #751
djfunkdup
NoT 1oF tHe UsUaLSuSpeCtS
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: DaRk SiDe Of ThE MooN
Services: Hyper-Optic 1Gig
Posts: 645
djfunkdup has a very nice sixpackdjfunkdup has a very nice sixpackdjfunkdup has a very nice sixpackdjfunkdup has a very nice sixpackdjfunkdup has a very nice sixpackdjfunkdup has a very nice sixpackdjfunkdup has a very nice sixpackdjfunkdup has a very nice sixpackdjfunkdup has a very nice sixpackdjfunkdup has a very nice sixpackdjfunkdup has a very nice sixpackdjfunkdup has a very nice sixpackdjfunkdup has a very nice sixpackdjfunkdup has a very nice sixpackdjfunkdup has a very nice sixpackdjfunkdup has a very nice sixpack
Re: Eurozone will collapse...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh View Post
Rant, rave, incoherent paranoid mumblings - repeat ad nauseum....


Signed in to say one thing.....

Thanks Hugh i now have coffee splatter marks all over my screen ...... U owe me for wipes !!!!!








*yes i no that sounded wrong on various different levels ...........
djfunkdup is offline   Reply With Quote
Advertisement
Old 26-05-2012, 13:51   #752
Osem
Inactive
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Right here!
Posts: 22,316
Osem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered stars
Osem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered stars
Re: Eurozone will collapse...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien View Post
If all debts are pooled and the Eurozone borrows and gets credit as one then you would need further integration. You can't have Eurobonds without further integration. Germany are holding out because they would lose out, they would be brought down to the level of rest and take on more debt for nothing.

Germany's motivation is economic success for their own country.
Clearly there's considerable disagreement about the Eurobond issue and the need (or not) for more integration, not the least with Hollande.

As for Germany's motivation, well that's what I've been saying isn't it? They are at the heart of Europe because it suits them to be so and they have a very clear idea how to further their ambitions for growth - namely by seeking more integration within the EU with them at the helm and with its overall economic policy suiting their needs far better than it does the likes of the Med countries.

I don't think that's some sort of alternative or covert Nazism either - I think it's as simple as one nation seeking to do what's right for it. The problem is that what's right for Germany isn't necessarily what's right or wanted by the rest of us and therein lies the source of growing conflict now times are getting seriously tough.

---------- Post added at 12:51 ---------- Previous post was at 12:46 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy J View Post
I don't think anyone actually has a solution that can be guaranteed to work.
However not panicking might be a start.
True. I just hope the Eurocrats' definition of not panicking isn't yet more dithering and burying of heads in sand.
Osem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-05-2012, 14:08   #753
gba93
ofc.founder_member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Camberley
Services: VIP 60
Posts: 894
gba93 has reached the bronze age
gba93 has reached the bronze agegba93 has reached the bronze agegba93 has reached the bronze agegba93 has reached the bronze agegba93 has reached the bronze agegba93 has reached the bronze agegba93 has reached the bronze agegba93 has reached the bronze age
Re: Eurozone will collapse...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem View Post
I think it's as simple as one nation seeking to do what's right for it.
That was the reasoning behind "lebensraum" (living room) which led to WWII and as I have said on this forum before there is more than one type of "invasion / occupation".
gba93 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-05-2012, 15:35   #754
jempalmer
Guest
 
Location: West Sussex
Services: 500gb Tivo & V+. TV XL, 60MB BB, M Phone.
Posts: n/a
Re: Eurozone will collapse...

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/lebensraum
  Reply With Quote
Old 26-05-2012, 15:54   #755
Damien
Remoaner
Cable Forum Team
 
Damien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 32,206
Damien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver bling
Damien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver bling
Re: Eurozone will collapse...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem View Post
As for Germany's motivation, well that's what I've been saying isn't it? They are at the heart of Europe because it suits them to be so and they have a very clear idea how to further their ambitions for growth - namely by seeking more integration within the EU with them at the helm and with its overall economic policy suiting their needs far better than it does the likes of the Med countries.
The thing is remember is this is not a problem Germany wanted. They are not helped by a weak and failing Eurozone and they do not want to be the Eurozone's bankers. Rather than telling Greece what to do they would rather not have to bail them out in the first place. They would rather Greece be fine and mind their own business. So when Germany try to dictate Greek policy this isn't to make Germany a stronger country but to lessen the damage Greece can do to them.

No one has shown how Germany have benefited from this crisis. They have just suffered the least because they managed their economy considerably better than, it seems, anyone else. It was very stupid of them to suggest a referendum to the Greeks but it's a reality of the situation there, the Greek people need to know the consequences of rejecting austerity and hence the bailout money.

In the context of this discussion it's ironic that Germany are the ones people suspect of a financial conspiracy

---------- Post added at 14:54 ---------- Previous post was at 14:50 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by gba93 View Post
That was the reasoning behind "lebensraum" (living room) which led to WWII and as I have said on this forum before there is more than one type of "invasion / occupation".
They are not economically invading Greece. They are attaching strings to the bailout money. If you go to a bank for a loan you abide by their requirements or you do not get the loan.

What is effectively happening here is: Greece need a bailout, Germany say "fine, but you can't keep living as you do. You need to balance your budget and live within your means. If you do not do this, You may have to leave the Euro" and then Germany get accused of throwing their weight around and, amongst the least fair-minded, get compared to Nazi Germany.

If we're going to compare anyone to 1930s Germany then Greece is a better candidate. Depression, serious economic problems for the population, the possibility of rapid inflation and all of this leading to a far-right nationalist party gaining more and more power in elections.
Damien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-05-2012, 15:56   #756
jempalmer
Guest
 
Location: West Sussex
Services: 500gb Tivo & V+. TV XL, 60MB BB, M Phone.
Posts: n/a
Re: Eurozone will collapse...

Don't be beastly to the Hun? Seems to be another circular argument developing.
  Reply With Quote
Old 26-05-2012, 16:03   #757
tweetiepooh
Virgin Media Employee
 
tweetiepooh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Winchester
Services: Staff MyRates BB: VM XXL TV: VM XL Phone : VM XL
Posts: 3,107
tweetiepooh has a bronzed appealtweetiepooh has a bronzed appeal
tweetiepooh has a bronzed appealtweetiepooh has a bronzed appealtweetiepooh has a bronzed appealtweetiepooh has a bronzed appealtweetiepooh has a bronzed appealtweetiepooh has a bronzed appealtweetiepooh has a bronzed appealtweetiepooh has a bronzed appealtweetiepooh has a bronzed appealtweetiepooh has a bronzed appealtweetiepooh has a bronzed appealtweetiepooh has a bronzed appealtweetiepooh has a bronzed appealtweetiepooh has a bronzed appealtweetiepooh has a bronzed appealtweetiepooh has a bronzed appealtweetiepooh has a bronzed appeal
Re: Eurozone will collapse...

One issue is that austerity measures can be very different depending where you start from. If you are in a "poorer" country then cutbacks could have much more impact than if you start higher up. So measures that might be unpleasant in Germany could really "hurt" in Greece.
__________________
I work for VMO2 but reply here in my own right. Any help or advice is made on a best-effort basis. No comments construe any obligation on VMO2 or its employees.
tweetiepooh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-05-2012, 16:06   #758
Damien
Remoaner
Cable Forum Team
 
Damien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 32,206
Damien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver bling
Damien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver bling
Re: Eurozone will collapse...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jempalmer View Post
Don't be beastly to the Hun? Seems to be another circular argument developing.
Don't make unwarranted comparisons with Nazism just because it's Germany is my argument. I think such a comparison has no weight other than the fact it's Germany and people seem to think they have a physiological trait to invade Europe. There is little to back up this theory, since Germany are not gaining out of this crisis.

---------- Post added at 15:06 ---------- Previous post was at 15:04 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by tweetiepooh View Post
One issue is that austerity measures can be very different depending where you start from. If you are in a "poorer" country then cutbacks could have much more impact than if you start higher up. So measures that might be unpleasant in Germany could really "hurt" in Greece.
Germany has a have better economy anyway so they will hurt considerably less but the austerity required by Germany is nothing compared to that required in Greece. This is because Germany didn't spend beyond their means whilst the Greeks did, and took a very relaxed approach to collecting tax.

It's not the same measures being applied across the Eurozone. It differs from country to country.
Damien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-05-2012, 16:11   #759
jempalmer
Guest
 
Location: West Sussex
Services: 500gb Tivo & V+. TV XL, 60MB BB, M Phone.
Posts: n/a
Re: Eurozone will collapse...

Sorry Damien, my attempt at irony failed. I also don't agree that Germany is somehow profiting from this debacle. However I do feel that the whole Euro project was a disaster from the outset. My opinion, solely?
  Reply With Quote
Old 26-05-2012, 16:41   #760
Osem
Inactive
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Right here!
Posts: 22,316
Osem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered stars
Osem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered stars
Re: Eurozone will collapse...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien View Post
The thing is remember is this is not a problem Germany wanted. They are not helped by a weak and failing Eurozone and they do not want to be the Eurozone's bankers. Rather than telling Greece what to do they would rather not have to bail them out in the first place. They would rather Greece be fine and mind their own business. So when Germany try to dictate Greek policy this isn't to make Germany a stronger country but to lessen the damage Greece can do to them.

No one has shown how Germany have benefited from this crisis. They have just suffered the least because they managed their economy considerably better than, it seems, anyone else. It was very stupid of them to suggest a referendum to the Greeks but it's a reality of the situation there, the Greek people need to know the consequences of rejecting austerity and hence the bailout money.

In the context of this discussion it's ironic that Germany are the ones people suspect of a financial conspiracy [COLOR="Silver"]

The extent to which Germany, or anyone else, eventually benefits or suffers as a result of this crisis is as yet unknown. I don't recall arguing that the Germans engineered or somehow welcomed the crisis because it would suit them. My point was that the EU seems to have been constructed and since developed in a way which suits the Germans far more than many other member states. The German economy has benefitted in all sorts of ways from Eurozone policy and when other nations needed higher or lower interest rates they weren't usually forthcoming because, IMHO, of the huge German influence over matters financial and economic. You say they have been successful in managing their economy better but their ability to do so is linked heavily to wider Eurozone policy so it's hard to argue that they've been successful in spite of that policy when they were so heavily involved in establishing it.

Conspiracy? Who knows, but what I know that in a competitive world, I see no obvious reason why a major economic power like Germany wouldn't use the huge influence it has clearly enjoyed in Europe for decades, to suit its own needs and ambitions first and foremost. Perhaps you could explain why you seem to find that notion so outlandish.
Osem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-05-2012, 16:51   #761
nomadking
cf.mega poster
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Northampton
Services: Virgin Media TV&BB 350Mb, V6 STB
Posts: 7,861
nomadking has a bronze arraynomadking has a bronze arraynomadking has a bronze array
nomadking has a bronze arraynomadking has a bronze arraynomadking has a bronze arraynomadking has a bronze arraynomadking has a bronze arraynomadking has a bronze arraynomadking has a bronze arraynomadking has a bronze array
Re: Eurozone will collapse...

By imposing the same rules on the rest of the EU as they have in their own country, they level out some of the playing field as far as competition is concerned. If competitors can have cheaper rules and regulations then they are at an advantage. Eg China & India vs the West.

Quote:
In just six years, Greece's deficit with Germany went from under three billion euros to over eight billion.
nomadking is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-05-2012, 16:57   #762
Damien
Remoaner
Cable Forum Team
 
Damien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 32,206
Damien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver bling
Damien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver bling
Re: Eurozone will collapse...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem View Post
Conspiracy? Who knows, but what I know that in a competitive world, I see no obvious reason why a major economic power like Germany wouldn't use the huge influence it has clearly enjoyed in Europe for decades, to suit its own needs and ambitions first and foremost. Perhaps you could explain why you seem to find that notion so outlandish.
Of course they would but there are other large economic powers within the EU, such as France, which should provide more of a balance. Thus it was never designed to favour Germany alone. The UK can be a more powerful counter-weight in the EU itself as well but we never seem quite as engaged. Each country is out for themselves and influence is gained via politicking and deal making.

I object to you saying I find the notion of Germany putting itself first 'outlandish'. I have said that is what they have been doing repeatedly in my last few posts. What I objected too has the comparisons with Nazi Germany which others have made.

I was also pointing out that in the current situation Germany are simply protecting themselves from the fallout occurring all over the Eurozone.
Damien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-05-2012, 17:31   #763
Osem
Inactive
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Right here!
Posts: 22,316
Osem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered stars
Osem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered stars
Re: Eurozone will collapse...

Clearly we both agree that the Germans are acting to suit themselves first and foremost and have done quite nicely thank you. As major architects of the EU policy under which they've benefitted it can't be argued that their success is co-incidental to it. They'd never have signed up to conditions which would hinder German progress would they.

My contention is that the development of the EU and the economic straightjacket AKA the Eurozone has allowed Germany to prosper at the expense of the needs of other nations in the south particularly. Furthermore they'd be quite happen for things to continue in this vein hence their desire to keep the Eurozone intact but with strings understandably attached to limit German exposure.

I don't find this at all surprising but you went down the route of arguing that memories of WWII somehow accounted for views like mine and that there was no evidence that the Germans had any desire to increase their domination of Europe, financially or politically. Forgive me but that rather sounds like you deemed my assessment outlandish and you have yet to explain why the Germans wouldn't rather like to extend their domination of Europe. They clearly haven't engineered the crisis and there are risks to Germany but to think that they (or any other country in a similar situation) wouldn't use the opportunity it provides to try to further their own aims would be naive.
Osem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-05-2012, 18:14   #764
Damien
Remoaner
Cable Forum Team
 
Damien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 32,206
Damien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver bling
Damien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver bling
Re: Eurozone will collapse...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem View Post
I don't find this at all surprising but you went down the route of arguing that memories of WWII somehow accounted for views like mine and that there was no evidence that the Germans had any desire to increase their domination of Europe, financially or politically.
Putting aside everything else, I went down the route of WW2 because other members had made the comparison. I don't think this situation is remotely comparable however much we disagree about the rest of it.
Damien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-05-2012, 21:43   #765
Osem
Inactive
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Right here!
Posts: 22,316
Osem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered stars
Osem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered starsOsem is seeing silvered stars
Re: Eurozone will collapse...

I don't think what's going on today is comparable to Nazism either for what that's worth. However that doesn't rule out a German desire to 'run' Europe and I don't think we should overlook what's been going on for years and the resentment that's now building in Europe now either. There are huge potential dangers ahead for us all.
Osem is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:41.


Server: osmium.zmnt.uk
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.