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Crisis in the NHS
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Old 11-01-2017, 19:50   #91
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Re: Crisis in the NHS

and another thing........ ( ) Whenever we have this discussion someone (sometimes me) raises the old chestnut about foreigners using the system and not paying for it being a factor in it's problems.....stress on maternity, HIV treatment, non-recouping of funds etc. Then the liberal crowd point out that foreigners don't account for all that much expenditure etc.
Why don't we simply stop people who haven't paid in from using the system (without paying for it's usage)? That would shut the little englanders up, remove a (real or imagined) problem and we could all move on to tackling the next problem with the NHS.
Heres a thought......Perhaps the NHS can't be revitalised by a big solution, an epiphany. Perhaps it's just a long hard slog through fixing a myriad of little problems that it needs?
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Old 12-01-2017, 00:42   #92
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Re: Crisis in the NHS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien View Post
People always want to take the politics out of [something] but I fail to see how that really works. Politics is how we decide these things. People vote governments in or out in part on their performance managing things like the Health Service.

If anything taking politics out of these areas is a way cowardly politicians try to avoid being accountable for their responsibilities. Hence when we have situations like Southern where the government can point at the companies and the unions are say it's nothing to do with them when they not only gave them the contract but stuck their oar in on how it should be managed - i.e get rid of the guards.

Nah, the government is responsible for running the health service and they're accountable for it as a result.
Although I still think you put up a strong argument, it appears that some cross-party consensus may appear.
Quote:
Sky Views More than 20 MPs from all three main parties - and two former health secretaries - have called on the Prime Minister to set up an NHS and care convention to come up with a long-term funding settlement for the health and care system.
Theresa May has agreed to meet with Norman Lamb, the former Liberal Democrat health minister, to discuss the idea. I suggest she go one further; champion a cross-party solution, end partisan bickering and de-weaponise the NHS, once and for all.
http://news.sky.com/story/sky-views-...rself-10725599
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Old 12-01-2017, 01:57   #93
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Re: Crisis in the NHS

Quote:

Most of those foreign ' freeloaders' are working and paying taxes. Many of them are working in the NHS, and we are dependent on them. Most of the scroungers are home grown.

140 patients on my ward....100 are foreign about 50 of those can speak partial english, 40 no english at all and 10 better english than me

only 2 of them work atm and 20 of them are lets jump off a plane get treatment and using the embassy at the moment to claim asylum. only 18 of the 100 have ever worked.

Treatment costs 50k a year per patient and this doesn't inc any other problems they might suffer with that require treatment some have cardiac problems and most have diabetic related conditions that require on going treatment this inc diabetic clinics and community nurses.

This is just a small area of the NHS you only have to go to your local A&E and you'll see foreign patients all over even the out of hours docs are the same.

---------- Post added at 01:57 ---------- Previous post was at 01:30 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramrod View Post
and another thing........ ( ) Whenever we have this discussion someone (sometimes me) raises the old chestnut about foreigners using the system and not paying for it being a factor in it's problems.....stress on maternity, HIV treatment, non-recouping of funds etc. Then the liberal crowd point out that foreigners don't account for all that much expenditure etc.
Why don't we simply stop people who haven't paid in from using the system (without paying for it's usage)? That would shut the little englanders up, remove a (real or imagined) problem and we could all move on to tackling the next problem with the NHS.
Heres a thought......Perhaps the NHS can't be revitalised by a big solution, an epiphany. Perhaps it's just a long hard slog through fixing a myriad of little problems that it needs?

When I first started working on the ward I am on now we had still do 35 patient slots per shift this inc 2 beds and the rest that look like dental chairs.

The chairs cost around 1k each the beds are around 3k each. we also had 12 wheel chairs.

10 years down the line...we have 100 foreign patients we now have 25 beds and 10 chairs. 20 of these beds are taken by foreign patients and only about 5 of them really needs one but because they kick off the trust just gives on and they buy the beds in 25 beds at 3k each.

There is also the increased costs of translators they have to bring in to talk to these patients.

Another thing that is happening. while I agree the trust uses a lot of foreign workers we use a lot of Filipinos. However majority 10 years ago was English working staff on my ward. we have around 60 staff and in the last 3 years replacement staff have all been foreign we stand at about 20 English now and 40 staff of none english.

We have fili's, italian, greek, romanian, asian, indian, pakistani, slovakian, polish, african and spanish. While they are great to get on with they translate for free on the ward as this covers a lot of the patients I was on about above and breaks up the communication barriers we have.

I did say years ago that the trust would start to employ foreign workers for this very thing. Not that it was advertised but I said the managers would looke to employ those that could speak the languages of the patients and bang 3 years down the line here we are. It's not through a lack of White English workers either.

750 applications for 1 job in 24hrs.

Same with the manufacturing industry you get a lot if not all asians and others of course polish being another working in these jobs it never used to be like that but you get one then they get some of their family and they get their friends and before you know it 100 of them are employed.

They speak their own languages and English end up getting pushed out. Thats not to say a lot of english wont do these jobs because a lot wont.

I get along with most at my work and they even agree that it needs looking at.

That of course is not to say the NHS needs a HUGE investment it's not just the money it's the cost savings they need to look at.
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Old 12-01-2017, 05:20   #94
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Re: Crisis in the NHS

This old argument of "jobs Brits won't do" is not as applicable as it used to be there are plenty of brits who'd jump at the chance of even the lowest menial job but because they are british they are not suitable because they would expect minimum wage and a lot of cleaning contractors now only want foreign workers that they pay at a lower rate then the minimum wage. My neighbours wife is one such example she gets £4 an hour and works from 0600 to 1500 when i asked why she put up with it she said that her being foreign and easily deported (that's how her employer puts it, it's not what i believe) she should be grateful and neither her or any of the others want to take the chance and call his bluff.

For a longtime the adult retraining in this country has been an absolute scam with only the so called training companys getting anything out of it. It's time we the public demanded better adult training and incentivise training to those unemployed so not only do they get decent quality jobs but the country has less skills shortages including within the NHS.
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Old 12-01-2017, 10:35   #95
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Re: Crisis in the NHS

NHS to recruit hundreds of GPs from Poland, Lithuania and Greece
The health service is to recruit hundreds of GPs from countries such as Poland, Lithuania, Greece with promises of £90,000 salaries and “generous relocation packages” in a bid to tackle a spiralling NHS crisis.

The new scheme run by NHS England will see doctors from across the EU undergoing 12 weeks training in Poland before they start work in Britain.

Health officials are trawling EU countries for medical staff in a bid to plug shortages of family doctors, amid warnings that long waits to see GPs are fuelling the Accident & Emergency (A&E) crisis.

Medics from Croatia, Lithuania, Greece, Spain and Poland have now been recruited, as part of plans which aim to bring 500 doctors in from the EU ahead of Brexit.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...huania-greece/
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Old 13-01-2017, 17:09   #96
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Re: Crisis in the NHS

Aired last night: In Business-The NHS and Productivity-BBC R4
Worth a listen. The take home message was that the NHS has enough money. It's just spending it very badly and doing a really bad job of running itself.
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Old 13-01-2017, 17:24   #97
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Re: Crisis in the NHS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramrod View Post
Aired last night: In Business-The NHS and Productivity-BBC R4
Worth a listen. The take home message was that the NHS has enough money. It's just spending it very badly and doing a really bad job of running itself.
I think most people had figured that out years ago
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Old 14-01-2017, 08:14   #98
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Re: Crisis in the NHS

The other thing to remember is that budget now has to cover a lot of social care. It would seem that part of the current crisis is a lack of social care provision causing bed blocking with people who would, with support, be able to go home. Hospitals have become a bottleneck with too many people coming in to A&E at the same time as they have trouble getting people out.

Social Care, Mental Health. The Government has been underfunding the parts of the social support that we don't see in order to protect the NHS budget. Then the NHS has to do more with the same amount of money.
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Old 14-01-2017, 09:03   #99
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Re: Crisis in the NHS

GPs in England must keep their surgeries open for longer to meet demand from patients, or risk losing funding, Downing Street has warned.
It said many patients were going to under pressure A&E departments because they could not get appointments.
The government wants to see surgeries open between 08:00 and 20:00, seven days a week, unless they can prove the demand is not there.
The British Medical Association accused ministers of "scapegoating" doctors.
Downing Street said surgeries should do more to ensure they offer appointments in the evening and at weekends.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-38620935

About time this happened .The GP is the first line of treatment and it is the GP surgeries that should kick start the 7 day NHS .Of course i don't think the GP will like this
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Old 14-01-2017, 09:45   #100
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Re: Crisis in the NHS

Stacks of GP vacancies though. They can't attract enough Drs, why? Because they are overworked.
It's the tired old Govt. plot, of blame someone else to deflect attention, and create a 'villain' for the media/public. We don't pay enough for our healthcare and we're going to have to pay substantially more should have been the message.
The 7 day NHS thing is cobblers, it always has been 7 days a week. Another media soundbite to deflect attention from the real issues.
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Old 14-01-2017, 09:59   #101
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Re: Crisis in the NHS

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Originally Posted by Mr K View Post
Stacks of GP vacancies though. They can't attract enough Drs, why? Because they are overworked.
Surely though hiring more GP's will relieve the overwork .Most of the overwork issue will be resolved by going 7 days a week because instead of treating x amount in 5 days you will be treating the same amount in 7 days .Those extra 2 days will make a massive difference to the NHS .

Quote:
We don't pay enough for our healthcare and we're going to have to pay substantially more should have been the message.
I agree we don't ,the message should have been " we will introduce a 7 day NHS and you will have to pay more for it"

Quote:
The 7 day NHS thing is cobblers, it always has been 7 days a week. Another media soundbite to deflect attention from the real issues.
Today 09:03
Only for emergencies ,not for the vast majority of NHS work it hasn't .In 2017 it should be possible for me to get treatment in the Musculo skeletal dept of my local hospital on a saturday or a sunday .In this country it seems to be considered more vital to allow me to buy a tin of beans on a sunday or get so drunk i end up in A&E than to get a steroid injection for Arthritis which would allow me to continue working and paying taxes .
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Old 14-01-2017, 10:19   #102
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Re: Crisis in the NHS

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Originally Posted by martyh View Post
Surely though hiring more GP's will relieve the overwork .Most of the overwork issue will be resolved by going 7 days a week because instead of treating x amount in 5 days you will be treating the same amount in 7 days .Those extra 2 days will make a massive difference to the NHS .



I agree we don't ,the message should have been " we will introduce a 7 day NHS and you will have to pay more for it"



Only for emergencies ,not for the vast majority of NHS work it hasn't .In 2017 it should be possible for me to get treatment in the Musculo skeletal dept of my local hospital on a saturday or a sunday .In this country it seems to be considered more vital to allow me to buy a tin of beans on a sunday or get so drunk i end up in A&E than to get a steroid injection for Arthritis which would allow me to continue working and paying taxes .
Hire more GPs ? yes, but it'll cost ( and take years).

Non emergency appointments at weekends,? nice but it will cost.

This would be on top of the extra money required to maintain the status quo.

Question keeps coming back to are we prepared to pay? Although most say yes, they do say different when it comes to voting/affecting their take home pay. Buck stops with us all.
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Old 14-01-2017, 10:32   #103
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Re: Crisis in the NHS

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Originally Posted by Mr K View Post
Hire more GPs ? yes, but it'll cost ( and take years).

Non emergency appointments at weekends,? nice but it will cost.

This would be on top of the extra money required to maintain the status quo.

Question keeps coming back to are we prepared to pay? Although most say yes, they do say different when it comes to voting/affecting their take home pay. Buck stops with us all.
As the old saying goes Mr K you can't fit a quart into a pint pot.
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Old 14-01-2017, 10:47   #104
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Re: Crisis in the NHS

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Originally Posted by denphone View Post
As the old saying goes Mr K you can't fit a quart into a pint pot.
tbh Den anyone who voted for the current Govt. can't really complain or be surprised about what's happening.
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Old 14-01-2017, 11:06   #105
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Re: Crisis in the NHS

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tbh Den anyone who voted for the current Govt. can't really complain or be surprised about what's happening.
Taking politics out of it this crisis has been coming for 20 year's plus but alas politicians from all parties have been in denial for that or even longer and are still in denial now and l cannot see now't changing sadly.
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