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TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?
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Old 23-08-2010, 21:17   #16
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

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Originally Posted by foreverwar View Post
"Calls may be recorded for training and quality purposes" I believe is the usual line given......
Pretty much the norm when calling most call centres nowadays.
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Old 23-08-2010, 22:50   #17
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

I didnt read it as recording your calls when ringing in to the call centre, maybe thats just me? I read it as them having a record of what calls you have made, as in comparing it to recording what sites you have visited
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Old 23-08-2010, 23:10   #18
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

Dont forget TT own there own exchanges, They are run for them by opel telecoms
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Old 23-08-2010, 23:13   #19
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

Quote:
Originally Posted by foreverwar View Post
"Calls may be recorded for training and quality purposes" I believe is the usual line given......
what - when you sign up to a phone service with TalkTalk? Is that the sort of "usual line given"? A line with a recorder stuck to it? I don't think I'll be ordering one of those any time soon. ;-) I've heard that one when I RING an organisation like TalkTalk- but I don't expect them to do it to all my calls via their retail telephone service. "traffic" I think was the word used. Not "calls to our support line". TalkTalk actually route a lot of their customer landline phone traffic via VOIP in a way that is transparent to the landline user - who is not actually aware they are using VOIP (at least that is what TalkTalk say on their website). Fine - but if it also involves "recording our phone traffic" then I think TalkTalk customers might be a bit upset as they quite reasonably don't expect anyone to be recording their phone calls - for the very good reason that no one warned them that would be happening. But then no one told them about the STalkSTalk service either. Or of course Mr Dorsman could just be being very careless with his language. In which case one wonders why he is fronting this PR initiative. He needs to be a lot more careful when he chooses his words.
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Old 24-08-2010, 00:04   #20
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

Quote:
Originally Posted by foreverwar View Post
"Calls may be recorded for training and quality purposes" I believe is the usual line given......
but in that case you are told up front that the call will be recorded and both sides consent to proceed

this is not the case with the stalk stalk system, no consent is requested from the website or the ISP customer as the process has no option to provide consent, it is just presumed incorrectly that both the customer and the websites they visit will wish to allow talk talk to use their data fot talk talk's commercial benefit and failure of a website to allow the system to scrape the website tags website as potentially hosting malware as it can't be verified

this is in effect finding the website guilty of hosting malware until proven innocent by allowing talk talk to scrape the site for their commercial advantage

if a website is pay per view, and the talk talk system accesses the same page to verify it with the same session id etc (as appeared to be the case shown by a website who posted some logs ) will the customer be double charged for the access or will it close their session due to the user apparently coming in from a second ip address ?
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Old 24-08-2010, 00:23   #21
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

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Originally Posted by R Jones View Post
And they deny using personalised urls from their customers browser strings. Which does not fit with the website log evidence that is publicly available. So still a very big gap between TalkTalk's replies and the evidence that webmasters have been collecting for the last two or three months. TT are going to have to close that gap if they want any credibility at all with webmasters and also with their customers.
No they don't they say they are 'working on it'.

Quote:
ISPreview: Re-requesting URLs that help web-based applications to function could also unintentionally result in a specific individuals remote website service or feature being accidentally enable or disabled (i.e. a dynamic URL can often tell a service to enable or disable depending on when and how a variable is accessed). In some situations this could even disrupt private login routines.

TalkTalk: This issue has been highlighted in our testing and we are working to avoid session based URL replication.
Zero credibility gap as no such claim was made just the usual 'we are aware and are working to resolve' waffle.

I'm waiting to see the actions of some major corporate websites over this to see how things pan out. No offence but neither your website nor broadband advice are high traffic material and sending bills to Talk Talk smacks of 'activist' more than anything else. If feeling is that strong simply block the server they are using, far less time consuming and far more effective.
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Old 24-08-2010, 09:24   #22
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignitionnet View Post
No they don't they say they are 'working on it'.



Zero credibility gap as no such claim was made just the usual 'we are aware and are working to resolve' waffle.

I'm waiting to see the actions of some major corporate websites over this to see how things pan out. No offence but neither your website nor broadband advice are high traffic material and sending bills to Talk Talk smacks of 'activist' more than anything else. If feeling is that strong simply block the server they are using, far less time consuming and far more effective.
TalkTalk can call it "testing" if they like, but it was actually a live deployment without consent. Just because it was covert, doesn't make it a test. Tests are done in labs, in internal closed networks, not live on the web with consumer traffic.

TT did a covert deployment - no consent from anyone. Then they got caught. In the real world. And they will have to face the real world civil and criminal consequences like a big grown up company.

I wonder what would happen if pharmecutical companies started doing covert clinical trials? Without either the patients or the doctor's consent? Changing the content of a given pill, but not telling anyone - just doing some record keeping to see if the new contents of the pill killed or cured at a different rate?

Sorry TT - but what TT did was not a test.

And I don't take kindly to other people either covertly crawling my website contrary to law or convention, or telling me what conditions I may or may not impose on visitors to my sites, or telling me how to respond to illegal use of my content. Blocking access may be the only way to stop rogue hackers. It shouldn't be necessary for a major UK ISP. Are a small site's rights any less than those of a large site? That's an interesting POV.

Personally I would have thought a major UK ISP would have responded to a clear communication from a website telling them to stop their crawling. But it seems that is asking too much from TalkTalk?

Undentified robots.
No customer or website consent.
Misrepresentation of identity.
Breaking functionality of sites.
Ignoring robots.txt.
Refusing to stop when requested.
Breaking clearly communicated website Terms and Conditions.
Refusing to face the consequences.

I think anyone who objects to that lot is being entirely reasonable. YMMV.

One thing I do agree on - it will be interesting seeing what large sites say about this. Amazon for example?
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Old 24-08-2010, 10:46   #23
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

I don't think small sites have rights that are any different from a larger site, but if a larger site (like the aforementioned Amazon) complains, Talk Talk are more likely to listen.
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Old 24-08-2010, 11:05   #24
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

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Originally Posted by Stuart C View Post
I don't think small sites have rights that are any different from a larger site, but if a larger site (like the aforementioned Amazon) complains, Talk Talk are more likely to listen.
They are learning to listen to small sites too. That's the way the law works.
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Old 24-08-2010, 11:49   #25
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

Oh, I wasn't discussing the legality of it. Merely stating that if a major site (like Amazon) expresses concerns about it, Talk Talk are more likely to listen the them than they would you or me regardless of whether their actions are legal or not.

If I go to Talk Talk and say "Your actions are illegal, and I will block your users", they are likely to say 'Yeah Yeah", go on about their business and forget about me. If Amazon say the same to them, they are going to sit up and take notice.
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Old 24-08-2010, 12:13   #26
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart C View Post
Oh, I wasn't discussing the legality of it. Merely stating that if a major site (like Amazon) expresses concerns about it, Talk Talk are more likely to listen the them than they would you or me regardless of whether their actions are legal or not.

If I go to Talk Talk and say "Your actions are illegal, and I will block your users", they are likely to say 'Yeah Yeah", go on about their business and forget about me. If Amazon say the same to them, they are going to sit up and take notice.
Oh I wasn't discussing the legality of it either Stuart. I was using the words "listen to" in their real sense - listen to - pay attention - hear - take notice of - act differently in response to... As in actually changing the way they do things. They ARE taking notice. They don't have any choice. Not admitting it, naturally, but there is a lot of evidence that they ARE listening. That's what MY logs and Inbox tell me anyway.
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Old 24-08-2010, 22:11   #27
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

the thing is even if it is a small site that takes TT to court to enforce charges for accessing their website it sets the same precedent as a large site like amazon if they win

also what we seem to be seeing is there is shareware which is free for private (not for profit / non commercial use) but companies have to pay a licence as they are using it for a commercial purpose

all that is happening is some websites are now using this same model

if they are sucessful in applying charges to corporates like talk talk for access it would appear to potentailly scupper similar style schemes from all ISP's
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Old 27-08-2010, 22:15   #28
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

It is somewhat amusing that website owners think they are entitled to charge ISPs to access their site, their property on the Internet, while jumping up and down to keep the net 'neutral' and prevent ISPs from running their networks, their property, in any way which may prejudice them.

This aside I've no doubt the usual people will be writing to Talk Talk, MPs, Europe, The UN,The Pope, Mahatma Gandhi, God and whoever else even though it doesn't affect them in any way to complain, because that's what they do, and Talk Talk will likely give the usual PR nonsense, then fire an incompetent junior legal advisor who gave this the thumbs up and drop it because it's simply too much hassle.

Different day, different company, same people protesting, probably same results due to carelessness of said company.
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Old 28-08-2010, 15:58   #29
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

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Originally Posted by Ignitionnet View Post
It is somewhat amusing that website owners think they are entitled to charge ISPs to access their site, their property on the Internet, while jumping up and down to keep the net 'neutral' and prevent ISPs from running their networks, their property, in any way which may prejudice them.
my understanding is that the sites are charging talk talk for access, as talk talk are making direct access requests to the websites for commercial gain (to populate a database of webpages for a new anti malware service with no gain for the websites)

the same way some newspapers are now charging to access content

you make it sound like the web sites are charging the ISP's for their customers access the websites from the ISP network, which is not correct
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Old 28-08-2010, 16:45   #30
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

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Originally Posted by bluecar1 View Post
the thing is even if it is a small site that takes TT to court to enforce charges for accessing their website it sets the same precedent as a large site like amazon if they win
That's *if* they win, which is not a given. Especially considering that a small website owner cannot afford. Amazon et al can afford more expensive lawyers.

I am not saying that big business always wins against the little guy. It doesn't. Ask McDonalds.
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