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Operation Yewtree
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Old 01-10-2012, 15:56   #61
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re: Operation Yewtree

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Originally Posted by richard1960 View Post
All this is very sad Jimmy Saville is now dead if only the allegations had of been made whilst he was still here.

Now its doubtful wether they can be proved or not as he cannot be questioned in court.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-19788721

bear in mind that "insufficient evidence to take any further action" does not mean he didn't do it, just that there was not enough evidence at the time of questioning to actually charge. now I'm not saying he did or didn't do it, but rumours of Savile and children have been circulating for many years, even before the 2007 questioning.
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Old 01-10-2012, 16:11   #62
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re: Operation Yewtree

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Originally Posted by Itshim View Post
I wonder all the time why any one would want to "play" with kids as a volunteer when not having a child of there own involved. When mine were of that age,I supported what ever they wished to join,but "left" with them
This is an example of where media hype has (I believe) damaged society. It's now thought of as weird that people who have no kids (for whatever reason, whether through choice, biology or circumstance) would want to just help kids without being some sort of pervert.

My sister, for instance, used to volunteer for our local council, supervising kids (who had problems at home and were often victims of various kinds of abuse). She would spend a week or two away at a local camp, just supervising these kids, and was frequently able to get them to open up about the problems they had. She had no kids, and didn't want any at the time. It does not automatically follow that she had sexual feelings for them.

Now, I am not saying that there aren't paedophiles. There are. I am saying that the Media (and in particular the Press) have made us as a society think there are more paedophiles than there are.
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Old 01-10-2012, 16:48   #63
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re: Operation Yewtree

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Originally Posted by Chris View Post
That's a pretty cynical view, and not one which stands up to any sort of scrutiny. There are people involved in charity and voluntary works of all kinds who have no personal connection to the cause, whether it's meals on wheels, a cancer charity or one of the many uniformed and non-uniformed youth organisations.

In fact, in my experience, lack of willingness of the parents to get involved is one of the main reasons why such organisations can't do everything they would like to or, worse, are forced to shut down.

Do you "wonder all the time" at the motives of the person with no living elderly relatives, who delivers meals on wheels?
In a word YES. With out trawling I am sure there have been cases of vulnerable people suffering at the hands of their carers. Sorry but I do wonder why they would do it. That is not to say that there is anything wrong. Just what is the motivation, perhaps thinking along these lines if it "saves " one person is not such a bad thing.
The carers that look after my father ( along with family, I have to add) are paid well over the going rate. So to hopefully ensure that they want to keep the job. However we have cameras ( with his full knowledge & permission) all over the house. Some in clear site others hidden . Just in case. Also a agency was/is employed to run full checks on anyone new entering his home.

---------- Post added at 15:48 ---------- Previous post was at 15:39 ----------

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Originally Posted by Stuart View Post
This is an example of where media hype has (I believe) damaged society. It's now thought of as weird that people who have no kids (for whatever reason, whether through choice, biology or circumstance) would want to just help kids without being some sort of pervert.

My sister, for instance, used to volunteer for our local council, supervising kids (who had problems at home and were often victims of various kinds of abuse). She would spend a week or two away at a local camp, just supervising these kids, and was frequently able to get them to open up about the problems they had. She had no kids, and didn't want any at the time. It does not automatically follow that she had sexual feelings for them.

Now, I am not saying that there aren't paedophiles. There are. I am saying that the Media (and in particular the Press) have made us as a society think there are more paedophiles than there are.
I simply wonder why people would want to do it. At no time did I wish to tar all with the same brush. That does not stop the question from passing though my mind. I can not look out for every person in the world. However when my family are involved I will always go the extra mile to ensure his or her safety & if that means questioning( If only silently) peoples motives.So be it.
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Old 01-10-2012, 16:59   #64
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re: Operation Yewtree

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Originally Posted by Itshim View Post
In a word YES. <snip>
I simply wonder why people would want to do it. At no time did I wish to tar all with the same brush. That does not stop the question from passing though my mind.
That's a real pity, for a couple of reasons that immediately come to mind. First of all, I think you could afford to try a little harder to acknowledge the damage sensationalist media coverage has done over the past 15-20 years and to choose not to allow your thought processes to be directed by it.

Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, I think you need to lift your eyes a little and recognise that not everybody operates according to the sort of naked self-interest you have described. Some people volunteer for things simply because they believe the interests of the community are served by it, though it may be of significant cost to them in terms of time and money.
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Old 01-10-2012, 17:08   #65
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re: Operation Yewtree

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Originally Posted by Stuart View Post

Now, I am not saying that there aren't paedophiles. There are. I am saying that the Media (and in particular the Press) have made us as a society think there are more paedophiles than there are.
is it not possibly the case that their numbers are either the same, or have increased due to more varied ways that they can distribute and/or be found out? the internet has completely revolutionised the way in which we communicate and the amount of information we leave as a shadow of our exploits. people can now find out pretty much anything they want about you given the skills and tools without even getting out of their seat these days.

perhaps there seems more of them because they are easier to track and find. maybe there are more of them because the information is easier to come by than it was 15 years ago. either way, we have a duty to protect children, regardless of whether the perpetrator is alive or dead. as was mentioned before, 'just viewing' an image is not 'just viewing' - a child was abused to gain that image. someone abused that child. others know about that person and the ring expands with other people possibly abusing other children. child abuse is child abuse, be it taking a photo, making a video or doing it behind closed doors with no recording or the event at all.

no one on this forum can know without any reasonable doubt one way of the other if Savile did or didn't abuse any children unless they were in the room when the alleged events took place. the point is, there is no harm in pursuing allegations to find evidence either way. it's better to spend time looking into this to find no one was abused, rather than ignore it and be ignorant to those who suffered. to ignore it would only send a message to abusers that could harden their belief that they can get away with it. to believe we know how many paedophiles are out there is silly - if we knew that, we would have to have caught them all.
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Old 01-10-2012, 17:09   #66
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re: Operation Yewtree

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Originally Posted by Chad View Post
The Sun are reporting that SIR Jimmy Savile is to be branded a manipulative paedophile by FIVE women who claimed he abused them as kids.

The legendary DJ and TV host - who died last October aged 84 - will be accused on an ITV documentary of molesting girls as young as 14.

Some of the women were pupils of Duncroft Approved School for Girls in Staines, Surrey, which Savile frequently visited in the 1970s.

Two of them claim he asked for sexual favours in return for treats and trips in his car.

Sources close to the programme - to be shown next Wednesday - said it features "shocking material that really lifts the lid on the icon".

Exposure - The Other Side Of Jimmy Savile is fronted by former Surrey police officer and child protection expert Mark Williams-Thomas. It took a year to make.

But Sir Jimmy's shocked niece Amanda McKenna, of Leeds, said: "The documentary makers should be ashamed for cashing in on a man who is dead and can't defend himself."

The BBC planned to broadcast similar claims on Newsnight shortly after his death.

But bosses shelved it and ran two tribute programmes celebrating his career instead.
i thort he died few years back?
why dig up all wat he did in his past? he gone now..
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Old 01-10-2012, 17:11   #67
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re: Operation Yewtree

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Originally Posted by Chris View Post
That's a real pity, for a couple of reasons that immediately come to mind. First of all, I think you could afford to try a little harder to acknowledge the damage sensationalist media coverage has done over the past 15-20 years and to choose not to allow your thought processes to be directed by it.

Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, I think you need to lift your eyes a little and recognise that not everybody operates according to the sort of naked self-interest you have described. Some people volunteer for things simply because they believe the interests of the community are served by it, though it may be of significant cost to them in terms of time and money.
I understand and fully agree with you on both your points. However blind trust in my mind is asking for trouble. Sorry but that is the way I feel.
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Old 01-10-2012, 17:18   #68
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re: Operation Yewtree

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Originally Posted by paulsouth View Post
i thort he died few years back?
why dig up all wat he did in his past? he gone now..
are you for real or just trolling????
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Old 01-10-2012, 17:30   #69
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re: Operation Yewtree

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Originally Posted by paulsouth View Post
i thort he died few years back?
why dig up all wat he did in his past? he gone now..
He is dead. If he did abuse them, those women (as they are now) are probably still suffering as a result of his actions. Don't they deserve some sort of closure?
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Old 01-10-2012, 17:37   #70
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re: Operation Yewtree

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Originally Posted by Stuart View Post
He is dead. If he did abuse them, those women (as they are now) are probably still suffering as a result of his actions. Don't they deserve some sort of closure?
Fully agree. Well said.
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Old 01-10-2012, 18:47   #71
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re: Operation Yewtree

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Originally Posted by Stuart View Post
He is dead. If he did abuse them, those women (as they are now) are probably still suffering as a result of his actions. Don't they deserve some sort of closure?
I would 100% agree with you but the law takes a different view. The children who were abused while in the care of Dr. Barnardo's are told as adults to get on with their lives and not look back, what is done is done.

A lot of these cases the then children ran away and were taken back to the abuser by the Police, so in the child's mind it was ok and the adults were allowed to abuse them. I'm lucky as I was never abused as a child in care so I can't know what these people feel or what these girls are going through.

I hope the programme will go some way for these ladies to close the door on the days they were abused by this sick man. If it comes out that people in the BBC were aware of what their golden star was doing heads should roll in a big way.

---------- Post added at 17:47 ---------- Previous post was at 17:35 ----------

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Originally Posted by Russ View Post
Neither was I. He did certainly have a very sinister vibe to him IMO but then again so did this guy.
Oh dear I'm afraid I also did think he was quilty of being a pervert/killer. When in fact he had given his life to teaching and had retired.
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Old 01-10-2012, 19:20   #72
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re: Operation Yewtree

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Originally Posted by Stuart View Post
He is dead. If he did abuse them, those women (as they are now) are probably still suffering as a result of his actions. Don't they deserve some sort of closure?
what sort of "closure" will it give them then? Raking up fetid muck in front of the world will really help them will it ?? OK, I'm not a qualified psychologist, but I can't help feeling that opening all this up could only damage them more, especially as there can never be a trial/conviction or whatever.

According to the lunchtime radio news, 2 of the women making these allegations have given their permission to be fully identified (I think they may even be appearing in the programme). I may be cynical, but I feel this is a case of someone doing ANYTHING just to get their 15 minutes of fame. If they were relatives/friends of mine, I would have strongly advised them NOT to bring this out into the public domain.
Maybe the documentary makers have paid them well, or suggested they'll get good money from the press ...
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Old 01-10-2012, 19:26   #73
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re: Operation Yewtree

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Originally Posted by idi banashapan View Post
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-19788721

bear in mind that "insufficient evidence to take any further action" does not mean he didn't do it, just that there was not enough evidence at the time of questioning to actually charge. now I'm not saying he did or didn't do it, but rumours of Savile and children have been circulating for many years, even before the 2007 questioning.
Yes thats fair enough but this guy was also pulled in for questioning after his name had been dragged through the papers and on TV without any foundation a few years back.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2003...ion.television
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Old 01-10-2012, 19:32   #74
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re: Operation Yewtree

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Originally Posted by idi banashapan View Post
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-19788721

bear in mind that "insufficient evidence to take any further action" does not mean he didn't do it,.
In the absence of a finding of guilt in a court of law, a man is innocent and entitled to go about his affairs without anyone making insinuations or acting prejudicially towards him. As far as the law is concerned, he did not do it.

Mind you, the principal protection in such circumstances are the laws of defamation, but they don't apply once you're dead.
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Old 01-10-2012, 20:42   #75
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re: Operation Yewtree

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Originally Posted by Stuart View Post
This is an example of where media hype has (I believe) damaged society. It's now thought of as weird that people who have no kids (for whatever reason, whether through choice, biology or circumstance) would want to just help kids without being some sort of pervert.

My sister, for instance, used to volunteer for our local council, supervising kids (who had problems at home and were often victims of various kinds of abuse). She would spend a week or two away at a local camp, just supervising these kids, and was frequently able to get them to open up about the problems they had. She had no kids, and didn't want any at the time. It does not automatically follow that she had sexual feelings for them.

Now, I am not saying that there aren't paedophiles. There are. I am saying that the Media (and in particular the Press) have made us as a society think there are more paedophiles than there are.
I agree. A lot of things in society were previously underground, so people think they are now more prevalent.

I believe that there are no more, or less, paedophiles today than there were years ago.

Are there more paedophiles around than you think?- yes.

Are most people paedophiles?- no.

I was chatting to some friends recently, regarding what we would do if we found a little girl found wandering the streets alone in tears. Some people, mostly women, said that they would comfort her or take her in whilst things were sorted out. I and others said that they wouldn't go near the child, we would keep an eye on her to ensure she didn't go near a busy road etc and call the police. I think it's very sad that the tabloid hysteria obout paedophilia has resulted in this, but there's no way I would want to be accused of touching the girl inappropriately.

Do you remember when they were behind with CRB checks for teachers a few years ago?

Some teachers (who, on the balance of probabilities, weren't child abusers) could not teach until their check came through. Many older children couldn't go to school and were wandering the streets whilst their parents were at work- much more dangerous in my opinion.

Of course, clearing a CRB check doesn't mean that one isn't a child abuser, it could merely mean that one hasn't been caught/convicted of doing it thus far...

Quote:
Originally Posted by clumsymum View Post
what sort of "closure" will it give them then? Raking up fetid muck in front of the world will really help them will it ?? OK, I'm not a qualified psychologist, but I can't help feeling that opening all this up could only damage them more, especially as there can never be a trial/conviction or whatever.

According to the lunchtime radio news, 2 of the women making these allegations have given their permission to be fully identified (I think they may even be appearing in the programme). I may be cynical, but I feel this is a case of someone doing ANYTHING just to get their 15 minutes of fame. If they were relatives/friends of mine, I would have strongly advised them NOT to bring this out into the public domain.
Maybe the documentary makers have paid them well, or suggested they'll get good money from the press ...
If you take a look at the link I provided earlier, one of them has bowel cancer, perhaps she feels she's got nothing to lose by going public now?

Paul Gambaccini is the latest person to add to the allegations:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-schoolchildre

---------- Post added at 19:42 ---------- Previous post was at 19:23 ----------

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... The viewing and downloading of which, boosted the site traffic stats of wherever he got it, possibly earning the distributor advertising or subscription revenue, and most definitely confirming the demand for such material, thereby directly inducing others to go and make more of it.
Because of their illegal nature, child porn sites are usually subscription based to make money.

They are encrypted, so a google search won't produce anything. That would be too easy for the police to find.

http://ceop.police.uk/ will often look for key words to alert them to inappropriate internet usage. All these Jimmy Saville threads will most likely be flagged up! Child sex rings will, therefore, talk in code in their forums/chatrooms.

Another way is to, say, create a site dedicated to flowers. On a page showing us what looks like a picture of a hyacinth, the paedophiles will have software that changes it to show a picture of child sex abuse instead.

Operation Ore arrests were mainly from credit card useage on such an illegal site. But, whose to say that someone else wasn't using the credit card, or that it's details hadn't been cloned?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ore

Interestingly, as I understand it, it's not illegal to look at child porn, it's the downloading of it that's the offence as then a person is then "in possession of it". I guess this is to protect people who innocently stumble across it in all innocence.

Otherwise, if someone posted such an image on here, people seeing it before it was deleted would have committed a serious offence!
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