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Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
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Old 02-01-2012, 13:46   #151
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Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Angry View Post
They have negotiated legal rights as do you.

Live with it.
Is this a sore point Mr A? You seem awfully aggressive today.

Per the above I can complain about anything I see fit to anywhere I see fit to so long as the host allows it. I resent paying higher tube fares so that tube drivers can get above inflation pay rises and absurd benefits by threatening to bring London to a standstill while most others see limited wage rises.

I complain about it elsewhere, did you want me to link you to those other places I've commented so that you can complain about my complaining there too?
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Old 02-01-2012, 13:59   #152
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Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'

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Originally Posted by Ignitionnet View Post
Is this a sore point Mr A?
It's not a "sore point" at all. I'm simply pointing out that they, like you, have a legal right to negotiate their terms of employment. You appear to find it somewhat of a sore point.

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Originally Posted by Ignitionnet View Post
You seem awfully aggressive today.
Not at all, indeed per your irrational self centred rantings below it appears to be you who feels inclined to be awfully aggressive today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignitionnet View Post
Per the above I can complain about anything I see fit to anywhere I see fit to so long as the host allows it. I resent paying higher tube fares so that tube drivers can get above inflation pay rises and absurd benefits by threatening to bring London to a standstill while most others see limited wage rises.
I'm sorry your obviously self centered sensibilities appear to have been offended. Such is life. That said, bully for you for being offended on behalf of the entire population of London.

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Originally Posted by Ignitionnet View Post
I complain about it elsewhere, did you want me to link you to those other places I've commented so that you can complain about my complaining there too?
No thanks, I'm beyond such childish endeavours (and I'm disappointed in your childish "throw the toys out of the pram" approach).

If you want to spend your life whining to all and sundry about others exercising their legal rights then knock yourself out. You'll find with maturity it inevitably becomes a very lonely furrow to plough.
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Old 03-01-2012, 10:49   #153
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Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'

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Originally Posted by Hugh View Post
Excellent conflation - you seem to be stating that only by allowing unions to make (imho) extremely unreasonable demands will they also be able to defend workers who are being treated unfairly.

You are Bob Crow, and I claim my five pounds....
I am not Bob Crow, for example he is anti-EU, I am pro-EU!

And What do you define as extremely unreasonable demands, Af far as I know, Tube Drivers and Public sector wokers are not demanding 7 figure wages or rolls-royces as company cars, not even free Iphones!

---------- Post added at 09:42 ---------- Previous post was at 09:35 ----------

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Originally Posted by Ignitionnet View Post
If a train crashes or is bombed it can be reached extremely quickly from outside. A driver isn't the panacea of care for the people on the train and if it crashes the chances are the driver is going to be the first victim anyway.

The laws in the UK regarding strikes and unions are far from the strictest in Europe however your posts here quite clearly give your viewpoint and put into context why you feel this way. Above you noted that the law should favour unions and employees which says all that needs to be said.

Regarding the other issues - if my wage is cut I get another job, if my pension is cut I get another job, if I'm made redundant I'm made redundant so must get another job, if I'm unfairly sacked I can take action due to the unfair dismissal process within the law. I'm not entitled to anything from my employer outside of their contractual obligations to me, it's a business arrangement, if the arrangement isn't to my satisfaction it's time to end it.

It's a somewhat different issue with the tube drivers obviously, they know they haven't a hope of getting a job with anywhere near the pay and conditions they have at the moment given their skill levels.

I have never 'done' unions. I do fine, but then I rely on myself to prove my value to employers and regard myself as an asset that provides value to my employer and that they should in return appropriately value me. As soon as I think they don't I go elsewhere.
What if the train is underground, remember time is important, it is better if there is someone on trains then it is better, if the law changes then the railways and tube will become a muggers paradise!

The trouble is that there are no decent jobs that pay decent salaries or pensions, if fact there are noty many jobs out there anyway and you know what is really band, is that The wealthy are still doing well, they still have high wages and high pensions, deispite that fact they cause the current mess they are in

---------- Post added at 09:44 ---------- Previous post was at 09:42 ----------

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Originally Posted by Stuart View Post
Although it's worth noting that the law requires that any train that goes to any stations that are underground has staff onboard. Essentially to manage the passengers in the event of an emergency. It doesn't, however, require a driver..

The government could change the law so that Union membership is banned for tube drivers though. It could be argued that any public transport drivers are important for the economy..

---------- Post added at 01:09 ---------- Previous post was at 00:51 ----------



It's actually rather disheartening to realise I earn less than the member of staff aboard my DLR train in the morning, yet I have a degree and he (or she) doesn't.

On the plus side, I have a more interesting job.
They can still do wildcat strikes, and anyway you don't need to ban unions to ban strikes, take the police for example!

---------- Post added at 09:46 ---------- Previous post was at 09:44 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Angry View Post
So, if you didn't think that your employer "appropriately valued" you you would simply "go elsewhere" by withdrawing your goodwill and leaving their employ rather than try to negotiate your worth?

Ironically that makes you considerably more militant than those union members whose you are trying to berate in this thread.

Clearly your stated position somewhat undermines your argument vis a vis the supposed selfish actions / industrial action / negotiations by tube drivers in relation to their job security / pay / perceived worth.

Marty, Stuart & Maggy - you appear to be venting angst on the basis that you feel somehow hard done by because according to yourselves there are no tube drivers who have degrees / comparable degrees or that degrees obtained by others are undervalued by comparison. Where have you got this information from?

Take a leaf from Iggy's book and act on a self centred basis by withdrawing your labour with no consideration for anyone else or, alternatively, join a union and negotiate - and if needs be strike - to get what you think you're worth.
Well said, If onyl more people shared you view point!

---------- Post added at 09:48 ---------- Previous post was at 09:46 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy J View Post
No I'm more peeved by the idea sold to me and my children that a good job with a good wage was possible only with decent qualifications.But when people with little or no formal education earn fantastic wages I get really peeved especially for my daughter who found her first degree could get her no job and so has had to retrain and get a further degree to find that even now there will be no decent remuneration even though she does now have a job.

I guess though that having a job is possibly the best outcome...Pity the 7 years of study haven't brought about a vast financial difference in her income. So yes I annoyed when people who have a decent income in comparison to the rest of society think nothing of inconveniencing the public as frequently as the tube drivers do.

Oh and I very much doubt that there are many degree holders among the tube drivers because that would entail some time devoted to studying at least 3 years minimum.Of course there would be opportunities through OU and they are earning the necessary dosh to pay for the fees.
Don't blame the unions blame the business and political elite for all this, But I understand what you mean!

---------- Post added at 09:49 ---------- Previous post was at 09:48 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy J View Post
No I'm more peeved by the idea sold to me and my children that a good job with a good wage was possible only with decent qualifications.But when people with little or no formal education earn fantastic wages I get really peeved especially for my daughter who found her first degree could get her no job and so has had to retrain and get a further degree to find that even now there will be no decent remuneration even though she does now have a job.

I guess though that having a job is possibly the best outcome...Pity the 7 years of study haven't brought about a vast financial difference in her income. So yes I annoyed when people who have a decent income in comparison to the rest of society think nothing of inconveniencing the public as frequently as the tube drivers do.

Oh and I very much doubt that there are many degree holders among the tube drivers because that would entail some time devoted to studying at least 3 years minimum.Of course there would be opportunities through OU and they are earning the necessary dosh to pay for the fees.
Maybe your daughter should join a union
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Old 03-01-2012, 10:50   #154
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Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'

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Originally Posted by Alan Fry View Post

Maybe your daughter should join a union
You have just crossed a line...Not everyone CAN join a union
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Old 03-01-2012, 10:56   #155
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Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'

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Originally Posted by Ignitionnet View Post
My perceived value is one set by the job market and legitimately dependent on the supply of my skills and their value. It's nothing to do with any perception of my own personal value. I don't pick a figure out of thin air, I base it around advertised salaries.

The actual value of train drivers is perhaps a different story given the extremely high supply of people who are potentially capable and willing to do the job.

I don't regard this as reasonable negotiation but blackmail. I have no issues whatsoever with unions preserving the rights their workers have and ensuring that employers stick to agreements, it's a quite different matter demanding pay and benefits well above those that the market would suggest are appropriate under threat of strike action.

It's a remarkably cynical move in contravention of standing agreements to make the demands they did and the level of action is entirely disproportionate.

At the end of the day they are free to go elsewhere if they feel so hard done by, although of course them getting 45k, a relatively generous pension, such a short working week and such a huge amount of time off is a somewhat different matter.

We will evidently agree to disagree on this. I should also mention that I'm free to whinge on this or any other subject as I see fit and of course train drivers don't whinge about me, they know a good deal when they see one and aren't likely to complain when their unions can hold the largest city in Europe and one of only two A++ cities in the world to ransom at a whim.

Are you sure that ther is a high supply of people that want to be tube drivers, I mean it is not this best of jobs (I mean the actual work you have to do) and anyway, you do not have to use public transport!

---------- Post added at 09:54 ---------- Previous post was at 09:53 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy J View Post
You have just crossed a line...Not everyone CAN join a union

Can you expand on that?

---------- Post added at 09:56 ---------- Previous post was at 09:54 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy J View Post
I think the real issue is why do the employers keep agreeing to these ridiculous pay agreements?
Because Tube drives have stong unions, if more people were members of strong unions then we would be all better off!

---------- Post added at 09:56 ---------- Previous post was at 09:56 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignitionnet View Post
Is this a sore point Mr A? You seem awfully aggressive today.

Per the above I can complain about anything I see fit to anywhere I see fit to so long as the host allows it. I resent paying higher tube fares so that tube drivers can get above inflation pay rises and absurd benefits by threatening to bring London to a standstill while most others see limited wage rises.

I complain about it elsewhere, did you want me to link you to those other places I've commented so that you can complain about my complaining there too?
For goodness sake, join a union to get better pay and conditions!
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Old 03-01-2012, 11:21   #156
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Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'

Which is better - a driver sat in his cab who is unable to do anything but call for assistance on a radio or other communication system if there is a reported passenger incident, or if the train is automated, a member of staff who can be mobile for the entire train length and able to both patrol and respond to incidents? Since trains are currently one person operated, I suspect the latter could be of more benefit to passengers?

Underground staff currently enjoy quite a good salary package. That is due to their overall strength of numbers and that many jobs, especially those of drivers, do take some time to become properly skilled. Whilst many of us would think it perhaps easy to drive a train, it is not that easy for an employer to "grab someone off the street" to replace other staff. Thus the unions do have a relative stranglehold. One does have to reflect that some of their shift patterns can become antisocial, and that first and last train type roles may make getting to or from work difficult.

It does appear to me that the relative salary level is already too high relative to other jobs. The tube driver is a skilled person, even if that skill isn't easily transferable to another job. That is the same for many people. It is wrong to argue that those, who include me, who have degrees and other professions, are automatically entitled to better salaries. I can only earn what I do based on what the public are prepared to pay for my services, and currently that isn't much, despite the fact that as a professional I effectively have a trade union, or more correctly a professional body who are supposedly promoting my profession.

This shouldn't be about whether someone get's triple pay or whatever time off benefits for working on a certain day. The real principle here seems to be that a deal was negotiated and agreed a few years ago to include bank holiday working, and now a union it trying to turn it's back on that and so far seem to be succeeding.
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Old 03-01-2012, 11:23   #157
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Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'

I believe in unions but not in the unions that hold the rest of the country to ransom particularly on public holidays on a regular basis..

It should be an EQUAL relationship between employer and employee Not an exercise in blackmail from either side.

And there are not unions in every workplace especially small private retail or franchised retailers such as Specsavers.

My daughter retrained as a dispensing optician at the cost of the small franchised Specsavers firm who, when she was using their services and heard her story, offered her a job and the chance to obtain further qualifications.There is no union and frankly if there were it would break the finances of the business if the employees were forever on strike to get better wages.

I can just see what customers would do if denied access to getting new glasses..they would just walk up the road to another outlet or to another independent opticians

Not something that tube users can easily do.The only alternative is to drive,catch an already overcrowded bus or walk.The first is no longer economically viable because of parking costs and Charges and the last is impractical after a day spent on your feet serving customers..In a tube strike the middle option strains an already stretched service.

The line you Alan Fry crossed is the one that arrogantly assumes that only you have the answers about a persons situation when you have no idea what that situation really is and you have the temerity to offer advice that just won't fly..Just like Mary Antoinette.
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Old 03-01-2012, 12:59   #158
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Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'

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Originally Posted by Maggy J View Post
I believe in unions but not in the unions that hold the rest of the country to ransom particularly on public holidays on a regular basis..

It should be an EQUAL relationship between employer and employee Not an exercise in blackmail from either side.

And there are not unions in every workplace especially small private retail or franchised retailers such as Specsavers.

My daughter retrained as a dispensing optician at the cost of the small franchised Specsavers firm who, when she was using their services and heard her story, offered her a job and the chance to obtain further qualifications.There is no union and frankly if there were it would break the finances of the business if the employees were forever on strike to get better wages.

I can just see what customers would do if denied access to getting new glasses..they would just walk up the road to another outlet or to another independent opticians

Not something that tube users can easily do.The only alternative is to drive,catch an already overcrowded bus or walk.The first is no longer economically viable because of parking costs and Charges and the last is impractical after a day spent on your feet serving customers..In a tube strike the middle option strains an already stretched service.

The line you Alan Fry crossed is the one that arrogantly assumes that only you have the answers about a persons situation when you have no idea what that situation really is and you have the temerity to offer advice that just won't fly..Just like Mary Antoinette.
So, are you saying...she shouldn't have gone to specsavers?
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Old 03-01-2012, 13:35   #159
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Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'

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Originally Posted by Maggy J View Post
I believe in unions but not in the unions that hold the rest of the country to ransom particularly on public holidays on a regular basis..

It should be an EQUAL relationship between employer and employee Not an exercise in blackmail from either side.

And there are not unions in every workplace especially small private retail or franchised retailers such as Specsavers.

My daughter retrained as a dispensing optician at the cost of the small franchised Specsavers firm who, when she was using their services and heard her story, offered her a job and the chance to obtain further qualifications.There is no union and frankly if there were it would break the finances of the business if the employees were forever on strike to get better wages.

I can just see what customers would do if denied access to getting new glasses..they would just walk up the road to another outlet or to another independent opticians

Not something that tube users can easily do.The only alternative is to drive,catch an already overcrowded bus or walk.The first is no longer economically viable because of parking costs and Charges and the last is impractical after a day spent on your feet serving customers..In a tube strike the middle option strains an already stretched service.

The line you Alan Fry crossed is the one that arrogantly assumes that only you have the answers about a persons situation when you have no idea what that situation really is and you have the temerity to offer advice that just won't fly..Just like Mary Antoinette.
I feel that Unions to try and expand their membership to the Private sector, especaly businesses like Specsavers, I head the they do provade sick pay and they are based in the Channel islands so they avoid paying tax, It this what Britain has come to! The sooner all opticians of Spacsavers, Dollond & Aitchison (D&A), Boots Opticians and Vision Express and other are unionised the better, Free Market Capialism has failed again and again and all it has done is make the rich richer and the rest of us worse off and anohter thing, if spacsavers were unionised then it make its employees better off.

And another thing, If you want to avoid strikes on the tube, vote for someone who is mork likly to give in and be co-operative with the unions than someone who is not!

---------- Post added at 12:35 ---------- Previous post was at 12:30 ----------

Just found out, the owners of Specsavers are worth over £1 Billion, also The owner of Dollond & Aitchison (D&A) and Boots Opticians avoid paying tax by basing themselfs in Swizerland! Now do you see my point!
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Old 03-01-2012, 14:00   #160
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Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'

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And another thing, If you want to avoid strikes on the tube, vote for someone who is mork likly to give in and be co-operative with the unions than someone who is not!
Excellent - that worked so well for Jim Callaghan, didn't it?
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Old 03-01-2012, 14:05   #161
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Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'

Just where are you going to find all this money so everyone can earn £55,000 a year. Are you willing to pay £500 for a eye test or £1000 for a Car service.

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Old 03-01-2012, 14:06   #162
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Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'

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Excellent - that worked so well for Jim Callaghan, didn't it?
It did not work for him because of high inflation (caused by high oil prices), and the decline of industry and the economy and the effect of the end of the British Empire and the rise of the USA!
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Old 03-01-2012, 14:33   #163
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Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'

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Originally Posted by Alan Fry View Post
Just found out, the owners of Specsavers are worth over £1 Billion, also The owner of Dollond & Aitchison (D&A) and Boots Opticians avoid paying tax by basing themselfs in Swizerland! Now do you see my point!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Perkins
Did you read the bit about the Franchise? You realise that Franchises are actually licences to use the name, logos and various other things of a larger business and are often owned by small businesses? Small businesses who have no access to the finances and facilities of the company. As such, while the owners of specsavers may have over £1billion in assets, the franchisees won't have access to that.
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Old 03-01-2012, 14:36   #164
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Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'

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Originally Posted by Stuart View Post
Did you read the bit about the Franchise? You realise that Franchises are actually licences to use the name, logos and various other things of a larger business and are often owned by small businesses? Small businesses who have no access to the finances and facilities of the company. As such, while the owners of specsavers may have over £1billion in assets, the franchisees won't have access to that.
Well I feel that the at least afford sick pay!
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Old 03-01-2012, 15:07   #165
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Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'

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Well I feel that the at least afford sick pay!
You keep saying that - are you stating that the Specsavers Franchisees don't pay Sick Pay?
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