Home News Forum Articles
  Welcome back Join CF
You are here You are here: Home | Forum | Will Scotland Leave the UK?

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most of the discussions, articles and other free features. By joining our Virgin Media community you will have full access to all discussions, be able to view and post threads, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload your own images/photos, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please join our community today.


Welcome to Cable Forum
Go Back   Cable Forum > General Discussion > Current Affairs

Will Scotland Leave the UK?
Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 23-01-2019, 00:05   #2806
Chris
Trollsplatter
Cable Forum Team
 
Chris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: North of Watford
Services: Humane elimination of all common Internet pests
Posts: 36,870
Chris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden aura
Chris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden aura
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien View Post
Wow. I hadn't realised their deficit was quite that bad.
As part of the U.K. it doesn’t have to be good. Pooling and sharing ... what every nation state does. Wealth is transferred from rich areas to poor ones. What a lot of Nats haven’t realised is that as an independent state, rather than as a nation that is a constituent part of a larger state, pooling and sharing occurs only within its own borders and out of its own resources.

Scotland is still a top 20 economy in world terms, but it has a top 5 expenditure. Living within its means would prove painful, and not just for the first few years. This is something the Nats have worked very hard to obfuscate but, largely since 2014, the truth is now quite widely understood amongst Scottish voters and one of the reasons Sturgeon hasn’t gone hell for leather after another referendum is that she knows a lot of work must first be done on building an economic case that sounds credible.
Chris is offline   Reply With Quote
Advertisement
Old 23-01-2019, 00:45   #2807
RichardCoulter
cf.mega poster
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 9,996
RichardCoulter has disabled reputation
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

So, even if the UK left the EU and Scotland became independent, it looks like they wouldn't be able to rejoin the EU until they reduced their debt.

Presumably we joined the EU as the UK and not as the seperate countries??
RichardCoulter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-01-2019, 00:49   #2808
Chris
Trollsplatter
Cable Forum Team
 
Chris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: North of Watford
Services: Humane elimination of all common Internet pests
Posts: 36,870
Chris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden aura
Chris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden aura
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

Correct - only the United Kingdom has the right to enter in to international treaties. Scotland is not recognised as a nation state at the UN or anywhere else (nor is England for that matter).
Chris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-01-2019, 00:55   #2809
Hugh
laeva recumbens anguis
Cable Forum Team
 
Hugh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Age: 67
Services: Premiere Collection
Posts: 42,039
Hugh has a golden auraHugh has a golden aura
Hugh has a golden auraHugh has a golden auraHugh has a golden auraHugh has a golden auraHugh has a golden auraHugh has a golden auraHugh has a golden auraHugh has a golden auraHugh has a golden auraHugh has a golden auraHugh has a golden aura
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris View Post
As part of the U.K. it doesn’t have to be good. Pooling and sharing ... what every nation state does. Wealth is transferred from rich areas to poor ones. What a lot of Nats haven’t realised is that as an independent state, rather than as a nation that is a constituent part of a larger state, pooling and sharing occurs only within its own borders and out of its own resources.

Scotland is still a top 20 economy in world terms, but it has a top 5 expenditure. Living within its means would prove painful, and not just for the first few years. This is something the Nats have worked very hard to obfuscate but, largely since 2014, the truth is now quite widely understood amongst Scottish voters and one of the reasons Sturgeon hasn’t gone hell for leather after another referendum is that she knows a lot of work must first be done on building an economic case that sounds credible.
Isn’t that also what the EU does?
__________________
There is always light.
If only we’re brave enough to see it.
If only we’re brave enough to be it
.
If my post is in bold and this colour, it's a Moderator Request.
Hugh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-01-2019, 01:00   #2810
nomadking
cf.mega poster
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Northampton
Services: Virgin Media TV&BB 350Mb, V6 STB
Posts: 7,861
nomadking has a bronze arraynomadking has a bronze arraynomadking has a bronze array
nomadking has a bronze arraynomadking has a bronze arraynomadking has a bronze arraynomadking has a bronze arraynomadking has a bronze arraynomadking has a bronze arraynomadking has a bronze arraynomadking has a bronze array
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

Scotland has it's own tax raising powers and as such should be held responsible for it's own over-spending.
nomadking is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-01-2019, 08:26   #2811
techguyone
Deus Vult
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: W Mids
Services: VM M350 with Superhub4 (modem mode) > Anytime Chatter > No TV
Posts: 2,081
techguyone has reached the bronze age
techguyone has reached the bronze agetechguyone has reached the bronze agetechguyone has reached the bronze agetechguyone has reached the bronze agetechguyone has reached the bronze agetechguyone has reached the bronze agetechguyone has reached the bronze agetechguyone has reached the bronze agetechguyone has reached the bronze agetechguyone has reached the bronze agetechguyone has reached the bronze agetechguyone has reached the bronze agetechguyone has reached the bronze agetechguyone has reached the bronze agetechguyone has reached the bronze agetechguyone has reached the bronze agetechguyone has reached the bronze agetechguyone has reached the bronze agetechguyone has reached the bronze agetechguyone has reached the bronze age
Send a message via Yahoo to techguyone
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris View Post
As part of the U.K. it doesn’t have to be good. Pooling and sharing ... what every nation state does. Wealth is transferred from rich areas to poor ones. What a lot of Nats haven’t realised is that as an independent state, rather than as a nation that is a constituent part of a larger state, pooling and sharing occurs only within its own borders and out of its own resources.

Scotland is still a top 20 economy in world terms, but it has a top 5 expenditure. Living within its means would prove painful, and not just for the first few years. This is something the Nats have worked very hard to obfuscate but, largely since 2014, the truth is now quite widely understood amongst Scottish voters and one of the reasons Sturgeon hasn’t gone hell for leather after another referendum is that she knows a lot of work must first be done on building an economic case that sounds credible.

I wish someone would enlighten my FiL it's irritating when he goes on about how great the SNP are and how 'the tories' (he says that a lot) are responsible for ALL the worlds ills - going back to Roman times.

Sadly there's no reasoning with him.

Last edited by Paul M; 23-01-2019 at 20:02. Reason: Using a * doesnt mean you can use that word, dont do it again.
techguyone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-01-2019, 09:08   #2812
OLD BOY
Rise above the players
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Wokingham
Services: 2 V6 boxes with 360 software, Now, ITVX, Amazon, Netflix, Lionsgate+, Apple+, Disney+, Paramount +,
Posts: 14,568
OLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronze
OLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronze
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh View Post
Isn’t that also what the EU does?
Yes, and we are one of the few net contributors to the EU budget.

Whereas, Scotland is dependent on wealth from the rest of the UK. This fact is most probably the main reason why the SNP is so hell bent on staying in the EU.
OLD BOY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-01-2019, 12:42   #2813
Chris
Trollsplatter
Cable Forum Team
 
Chris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: North of Watford
Services: Humane elimination of all common Internet pests
Posts: 36,870
Chris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden aura
Chris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden aura
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh View Post
Isn’t that also what the EU does?
Not really.

The EU budget is small compared to a full national one, and the EU essentially has no direct tax raising power (albeit it automatically receives a slice of VAT receipts).

EU funds tend to be focused on strategic projects like infrastructure or other economic development. Such projects make a useful contribution to the places where they are located but they are nothing like the scale of wealth transfer that ensures a more-or-less uniform level of health, education and social service provision within a nation state.

The EU even lacks the basic mechanisms to prevent uneven currency accumulation within the Eurozone, both contributing to the recent crisis and hampering the solution. In the USA, which is amongst other things a single Dollar currency zone, around 60% of tax is collected at the Federal level. This helps ensure poor Louisiana is still recognisably in the same nation state as California, which even as a fully independent state would still have a G7 economy.
Chris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-01-2019, 14:44   #2814
SilverLady
Inactive
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 151
SilverLady is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

I wish people would stop saying that 62% of Scottish people voted to remain in Europe. It is only 62% of Scottish people WHO VOTED chose to remain.

The actual turnout was a low 67% which means that of the Scottish electorate, 42% voted to remain, 25% voted to leave and 33% had no opinion either way.

Nicola knows that there is a very vocal minority shouting for Independence and if another Scottish Independence is called, the silent majority might turn out to vote, a risk she can't take.
SilverLady is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-01-2019, 16:17   #2815
Hugh
laeva recumbens anguis
Cable Forum Team
 
Hugh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Age: 67
Services: Premiere Collection
Posts: 42,039
Hugh has a golden auraHugh has a golden aura
Hugh has a golden auraHugh has a golden auraHugh has a golden auraHugh has a golden auraHugh has a golden auraHugh has a golden auraHugh has a golden auraHugh has a golden auraHugh has a golden auraHugh has a golden auraHugh has a golden aura
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverLady View Post
I wish people would stop saying that 62% of Scottish people voted to remain in Europe. It is only 62% of Scottish people WHO VOTED chose to remain.

The actual turnout was a low 67% which means that of the Scottish electorate, 42% voted to remain, 25% voted to leave and 33% had no opinion either way.

Nicola knows that there is a very vocal minority shouting for Independence and if another Scottish Independence is called, the silent majority might turn out to vote, a risk she can't take.
According to that logic, in the UK, since 52% of 72% voted to Leave, only 37.4% voted to Leave...
__________________
There is always light.
If only we’re brave enough to see it.
If only we’re brave enough to be it
.
If my post is in bold and this colour, it's a Moderator Request.
Hugh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-01-2019, 16:42   #2816
Carth
cf.mega poster
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: At the Leaving door
Posts: 4,050
Carth has a bronze arrayCarth has a bronze arrayCarth has a bronze array
Carth has a bronze arrayCarth has a bronze arrayCarth has a bronze arrayCarth has a bronze arrayCarth has a bronze arrayCarth has a bronze arrayCarth has a bronze arrayCarth has a bronze arrayCarth has a bronze arrayCarth has a bronze arrayCarth has a bronze arrayCarth has a bronze array
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh View Post
According to that logic, in the UK, since 52% of 72% voted to Leave, only 37.4% voted to Leave...
gosh darn it Hugh, I'm no good with statistics (although I do know 5 out of 10 is 50%, and 90% of cats 'that expressed a preference' would rather eat Whiskas than any other cat food) . . but you got me thinking about the % of voters that placed the last two Governments into power

how low was it, if you can do a quickie?
Carth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-01-2019, 18:11   #2817
Hugh
laeva recumbens anguis
Cable Forum Team
 
Hugh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Age: 67
Services: Premiere Collection
Posts: 42,039
Hugh has a golden auraHugh has a golden aura
Hugh has a golden auraHugh has a golden auraHugh has a golden auraHugh has a golden auraHugh has a golden auraHugh has a golden auraHugh has a golden auraHugh has a golden auraHugh has a golden auraHugh has a golden auraHugh has a golden aura
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

I don’t agree with the logic, because if you don’t vote, you don’t count - I was just pointing out the flaw, in my eyes, of following that line of thought...

However, it will be amusing that if we have a General Election this year (as is looking more and more likely), it will be ‘democratic’ to have had 4 elections in 9 years, but if we had a 2nd referendum (the 2nd in 3 years), that would be ‘undemocratic"...
__________________
There is always light.
If only we’re brave enough to see it.
If only we’re brave enough to be it
.
If my post is in bold and this colour, it's a Moderator Request.

Last edited by Hugh; 23-01-2019 at 18:14.
Hugh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-01-2019, 20:05   #2818
Paul
Dr Pepper Addict
Cable Forum Team
 
Paul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Nottingham
Age: 61
Services: Flextel SIP : Sky Mobile : Sky Q TV : VM BB (1000 Mbps) : Aquiss FTTP (330 Mbps)
Posts: 27,612
Paul is seeing silvered starsPaul is seeing silvered starsPaul is seeing silvered starsPaul is seeing silvered starsPaul is seeing silvered stars
Paul is seeing silvered starsPaul is seeing silvered starsPaul is seeing silvered starsPaul is seeing silvered starsPaul is seeing silvered starsPaul is seeing silvered starsPaul is seeing silvered starsPaul is seeing silvered starsPaul is seeing silvered starsPaul is seeing silvered starsPaul is seeing silvered starsPaul is seeing silvered starsPaul is seeing silvered starsPaul is seeing silvered starsPaul is seeing silvered starsPaul is seeing silvered starsPaul is seeing silvered starsPaul is seeing silvered starsPaul is seeing silvered stars
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

Having General Elections is the normal process.
Having a second referendum because you didnt like the result of the first one is not.

__________________

Baby, I was born this way.
Paul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-01-2019, 20:15   #2819
Hugh
laeva recumbens anguis
Cable Forum Team
 
Hugh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Age: 67
Services: Premiere Collection
Posts: 42,039
Hugh has a golden auraHugh has a golden aura
Hugh has a golden auraHugh has a golden auraHugh has a golden auraHugh has a golden auraHugh has a golden auraHugh has a golden auraHugh has a golden auraHugh has a golden auraHugh has a golden auraHugh has a golden auraHugh has a golden aura
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

Especially ‘advisory’ ones... ;-)
__________________
There is always light.
If only we’re brave enough to see it.
If only we’re brave enough to be it
.
If my post is in bold and this colour, it's a Moderator Request.
Hugh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-01-2019, 20:49   #2820
Chris
Trollsplatter
Cable Forum Team
 
Chris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: North of Watford
Services: Humane elimination of all common Internet pests
Posts: 36,870
Chris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden aura
Chris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden aura
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh View Post
Especially ‘advisory’ ones... ;-)
A referendum is always advisory in our constitution, even if it’s set up to automatically trigger legislation to come in to effect (which this one wasn’t), because Parliament can’t bind its successors and a future Parliament can always repeal something done by a predecessor. Referendums lean on precedent for their authority, which in the few cases they have been used in our constitution, means that Parliament enacts the result of the referendum (or does not, in the case of status quo).

It is undemocratic to hold a second referendum because it contravenes both precedent and the specific undertaking that the result would be enacted. It undermines public trust in the process and automatically dilutes the authority of any future referendum result, on whatever issue.*

It is not undemocratic to hold repeated general elections because that is the customary means (established by centuries of precedent) by which our constitution deals with a situation where a government cannot get its business through Parliament.

* To drag this back on topic, Sturgeon is playing a very risky hand by voicing support for a second referendum. If she ever manages to win one in Scotland, her words will return to haunt the entire Nat movement.

Last edited by Chris; 23-01-2019 at 20:53.
Chris is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 2 (0 members and 2 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:30.


Server: osmium.zmnt.uk
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.